"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Rollo Tomasi]

You have no shame.

I'm ashamed when I do something shameful.

Untrue. Case in point: GoodK and his father.

[_The Nehor]

The 'dog and pony show' brought peace to a great many people. It was not an organizational meeting. It was designed to deal with REAL problems people were facing.

And what REAL solutions came from it?

Harmony is not as 'rank and file' as they come. I've never met a member as judgmental and harsh in criticism towards out leaders within the Church before.

She is saying things many faithful members think and believe. The Brethren are not infalliable -- they screw up all the time (as we all do).

It is as much mine as hers. Unfortunately that means nothing.

It means everything.

It's Christ's Church and if he was as upset as Harmony was about her gripes I'm pretty sure he has both the power and ability to create change through direct revelation or removing leaders if they won't listen.

Fortunately, He is not a puppetmaster and we are not puppets. I think for the most part He leaves us (including the Brethren) to our own devices.

The REAL solution was that I made some changes in my life based on what he said and was able to stop feeling guilt over something long past and that I live a happier, more fulfilling life because of some of the things he said. Some of my friends also responded positively.

She's saying what many faithless members think and believe. I really hope the Brethren don't start pandering to that demographic.

[_harmony]

I mean this with all due respect, harmony, but I have never once got the impression that you like the LDS Church.

You are wrong (please notice I didn't say you lied. I said you are wrong. Big difference.)

I love the church. It's true, I am disappointed in the church, especially in a few critical areas, but that doesn't mean I'm not supportive of its mission. I'm just not universally supportive of the methods by which it goes about its mission, nor am I supportive of the extraneous stuff and the culture under which it operates.

I am not telling you this as an attack, I am merely telling you what I have observed in rather casual and not comprehensive reading of posts you make on the Internet.

Good. I wouldn't want to have you edit you with a red pen.

Perhaps this is a place where you simply blow off steam or something, but the steam is so protracted and consistent, I am at a complete loss to understand why you even (apparently) attend Church.

Of course I attend church. And I say nothing that would in any way be detrimental to anyone or anyone's testimony in my ward. I care about my ward family. I don't want to burst the bubble in which they live, and I would not consider it my business to tell them anything they don't already know. It's difficult enough for me to live with what I know; I won't inflict that on anyone else.

I can't imagine what you do when you sit in sacrament meeting and hear talks with which you disagree. I don't know how you sit through 3 hours each Sunday and not raise your hand to disagree with all the things you would disagree with.

I generally avoid those sorts of meetings. I know exactly what's going to be said in every meeting before it happens, so I know which ones I should leave early for and which ones I can enjoy to the end.

I can't fathom your response (nor is it much my business) to the questions of the temple recommend interview.

I have no problem with the TRI at all.

Joseph as a prophet,

I believe Joseph was a prophet. And I think he did what he was supposed to do, and then he laid down the prophetic mantle and did his own thing. I think it's too bad the rest of what he did had such a horrendous effect on the church.

...the current leadership as prophets, seers, revelators, etc.

I sustain all the Brethren, my local leaders, etc. I don't see this as a conflict. I just wish they actually were prophets, seers, and revelators, because I think we could use something a bit more effective than earring mandates and tithing talks.

It seems to me that you hate the Church.

I don't hate the church. That's silly. I have a deep-seated dislike of church culture, and I'm in opposition to a few of the church's policies, but I certainly don't hate the church.

You may very well believe that you don't, but the overwhelming impression I've received is loathing.

Perhaps you don't know how to differentiate between the church and church culture.

You say you love the Saints, and you do well, but Dan Peterson is a latter-day Saint.

And I love Daniel (in a purely Christlike way). I wish him only the best. I don't have to agree with him, though, and he has no stewardship over me, so he has no obligation to me at all. I trust him on things I trust few other men with. But that doesn't mean I'll keep my concerns to myself regarding the Brethren or anything else related to the church. He does not try to muzzle me (not that he could, but still...)

So am I. The brethren are too. So are the guys who wrote the Mountain Meadows Massacre book, and all other imperfect people.

And I love them (and you) too, in the same Christlike way. That doesn't put you, or them, or anyone else above criticism or praise.

"Rank and file" don't typically spend so much time talking about how awful the Church leadership is. They don't complain about every move the Church makes.

Of course they don't. They suffer silently, fearful of the hammer that Elder Oakes inferred and Pres Hinckley promised to all who dared to speak out. Loyalty or Spiritual Death.

Have you ever heard of the women's survey that the church sent out years ago? No? Perhaps you should do some research, and find out exactly what many women in the church said on that survey, which the church never released for publication when they saw the results, and then come back and tell me I'm supposed to believe that I'm the only woman in the church who has issues with the way women are treated. (It used to be online but I don't know if it still is).

I don't remember you ever having one good thing to say about the Church. You must have, I admit, but I don't remember seeing it.

Then you aren't paying attention.

I guess your personality away from the Internet may be much different, but I am downright baffled at this post you just made.

My personality away from the internet is appropriate to the forum in which I find myself. I am considered articulate, a clear communicator, and generally very charming. I guess, for you, I'm an acquired taste.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

A phone call they won't answer, a meeting that will never take place, a letter that no one will read.

Any other ideas?

I'm not sure where this sort of thing comes from. I've related this story here before, might as well do it again. A friend of mine attended a young single adult fireside at Utah State University. I was at the fireside as well. The speaker, one of the twelve apostles, was talking about- go figure- dating. He was speaking extemporaneously and made a crack about how some young men need to try to clean themselves up a little more, make themselves more presentable. He then said the same for the young women, and said some of them look like they just rolled out of bed, pajamas in class, no makeup, and that they sometimes look like (and here was the kicker) "death warmed over."

Well, my friend is a slight feminist. She doesn't wear makeup. She was offended by the joke and decided to write the speaker a letter, not expecting anything in return. She told him how it was difficult for her to be a young woman competing with the portrayal of women we see on tv and in magazines. She said it was difficult to not follow the false sense of beauty she saw in the world, to become worldly.

Soon she received a call asking her if she would be in SLC anytime soon, and that the apostle wanted to see her. During their visit he tried to explain what he meant, but ultimately said he was sorry for having made the comment.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

The REAL solution was that I made some changes in my life based on what he said and was able to stop feeling guilt over something long past and that I live a happier, more fulfilling life because of some of the things he said. Some of my friends also responded positively.

I'm glad to see Elder Scott helped.

She's saying what many faithless members think and believe. I really hope the Brethren don't start pandering to that demographic.

I disagree that she is "faithless." And the Brethren "pander" to pressure all the time -- whether it be the gov't, the masses, etc. The only way to effect change in the Church is to raise a stink. The Brethren are rarely proactive, in my opinion.

[_harmony]

The REAL solution was that I made some changes in my life based on what he said and was able to stop feeling guilt over something long past and that I live a happier, more fulfilling life because of some of the things he said. Some of my friends also responded positively.

Good for you. However, that doesn't change the things I'm talking about.

She's saying what many faithless members think and believe. I really hope the Brethren don't start pandering to that demographic.

You just trashed a great many faithful members of the church.

[_Lamanite]

...

Honestly Harmony, I've laid the opportunity at your feet. You declined. So what is the solution? Just a lot of bitching on your part. What is that going to solve? Do you want me to do the work? How about Dan? Maybe LOAP? Which one of the Saints is supposed to solve the problems? Give some solutions and be willing to get involved.

Hiding behind the "I'm not ready to get ex'd" routine is tiresome. Identify a problem, make an attempt to offer solutions, and then go into action. You're in the, Bitch and complain , I'm too stubborn to share my solutions (And to be frank I don't think you have one viable solution to any of the problems you complain about), and even if a solution were presented, you go into the, "I'm not willing to get involved because I might get ex'd; even though I hate the majority of what the Church was and is."

A lot of mixed messages.

Big UP!

Lamanite

P.S. I know, I know, your TR is just as good......

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I mean this with all due respect, harmony, but I have never once got the impression that you like the LDS Church.

Perhaps this is because for many faithful members there is a big difference between the LDS Church in terms of theology and the LDS Church as an institution.

I can't imagine what you do when you sit in sacrament meeting and hear talks with which you disagree. I don't know how you sit through 3 hours each Sunday and not raise your hand to disagree with all the things you would disagree with.

Perhaps there are many things she also agrees with. It's that way with me.

I can't fathom your response (nor is it much my business) to the questions of the temple recommend interview. Joseph as a prophet, the current leadership as prophets, seers, revelators, etc.

No question asks if these persons were/are perfect or infalliable. As to the current leadership, the question is whether I "sustain." One can "sustain" and support without obeying, etc. in my opinion, "sustain" also means to think for one's self and point out when mere humans, even prophets, screw up.

It seems to me that you hate the Church.

I don't get that impression from harmony at all.

You may very well believe that you don't, but the overwhelming impression I've received is loathing.

I've had the opposite impression.

You say you love the Saints, and you do well, but Dan Peterson is a latter-day Saint.

In name, perhaps, but some of his actions here suggest otherwise.

So am I. The brethren are too. So are the guys who wrote the Mountain Meadows Massacre book, and all other imperfect people.

True, but all are subject to criticism and frank debate.

"Rank and file" don't typically spend so much time talking about how awful the Church leadership is.

Perhaps they should. That's the only way change for the better comes about.

They don't complain about every move the Church makes.

I think they should -- 'squeaky wheel gets the grease' and all that.

I don't remember you ever having one good thing to say about the Church.

I do.

[_harmony]

I'm not sure where this sort of thing comes from. I've related this story here before, might as well do it again. A friend of mine attended a young single adult fireside at Utah State University. I was at the fireside as well. The speaker, one of the twelve apostles, was talking about- go figure- dating. He was speaking extemporaneously and made a crack about how some young men need to try to clean themselves up a little more, make themselves more presentable. He then said the same for the young women, and said some of them look like they just rolled out of bed, pajamas in class, no makeup, and that they sometimes look like (and here was the kicker) "death warmed over."

Well, my friend is a slight feminist. She doesn't wear makeup. She was offended by the joke and decided to write the speaker a letter, not expecting anything in return. She told him how it was difficult for her to be a young woman competing with the portrayal of women we see on tv and in magazines. She said it was difficult to not follow the false sense of beauty she saw in the world, to become worldly.

Soon she received a call asking her if she would be in SLC anytime soon, and that the apostle wanted to see her. During their visit he tried to explain what he meant, but ultimately said he was sorry for having made the comment.

Did any policy change? Was anything changed with the YW or the YSA women's program in response to your friend's experience? Are YW and YSA women now given any insight into something besides the necessity of a superficial beauty to attract men with the aim of getting married and having a houseful of children? Are they taught the necessity of getting an education with the aim of having a career (as opposed to going to college to meet a RM and getting the MRS degree before they're 20?), the importance of dressing appropriately and professionally as an expression of confidence and competence, (as opposed to flirtatiously with the intent to trap some poor guy into a marriage that goes bad within 5 years and leaves them with 3 small children to support?), or lessons about feeling worthwhile in the face of constant criticism for either not being lucky enough to find a guy and get married before 20 or *gasp* choosing to have a career because all the guys in the Branch are jerks or worse?

No? Then your friend's experience wasn't really helpful to the rest of the young single women in the church, was it?

Welcome to my daughter's world.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm ashamed when I do something shameful.

Untrue. Case in point: GoodK and his father.

Rollo absolutely loves this subject. He'll keep it going forever. He's like the Energizer Bunny on this topic.

It's a marvel to behold.

If his enthusiasm for lamenting the horror of my cruelty to the GoodK family could be harnassed to the power grid, we could reduce our dependence on coal and foreign oil by a substantial amount.

For those who aren't familiar with the unspeakably dreadful tale at issue here, here's an image, taken from a distance, of the precise moment when my e-mail, which -- obscene and terrible as it sounds --contained (and I shudder even to mention it!) a link to a public message board, arrived at Haus GoodK, a house that had been happy, peaceful, and harmonious until that fatal day: