The Bitter Fruits of Apostacy

[_Gazelam]

Roger,

"You need to trust God through me; I know what is best for you."

How many times you (and LDS Leaders) have implied that very thing, over the years, I can't count. In this very thread I think you suggested the person who opened this topic would ignore your counsel at risk of their eternal destiny...

Were you equally questioning when you heard these same phrases from Moses? From Christ? From Paul?

[_Chap]

Roger,

"You need to trust God through me; I know what is best for you."

How many times you (and LDS Leaders) have implied that very thing, over the years, I can't count. In this very thread I think you suggested the person who opened this topic would ignore your counsel at risk of their eternal destiny...

Were you equally questioning when you heard these same phrases from Moses? From Christ? From Paul?

Why not?

Of course in the case of Joseph Smith we have so much more evidence that tells against his personal integrity than we have in the case of Moses, Jesus and Paul (though the evidence as to what each of these three actually said differs greatly from one to the other). But that may just be because we are so much closer in time to Smith than the others.

[_Chap]

This goes along with the old mantra that a man can build a house, but it takes a woman to make a home. A man can teach and instruct and use his priesthood to officiate in a covenant, but it is a woman who through her natural nurturing and loving manner quietly encourages and supports her family in the keeping of those covenants.

I should like to find a politer way of talking about this, but if you are a married man with children and have actually run your family life in this stereotyped way I am a bit sorry for you. You mean you haven't done any loving and nurturing for your kids? You mean that your wife doesn't get to do any 'teach[ing] and instruct[ing]', or even 'officiat[ing]' (whatever the latter may mean in a normal home environment as opposed to a business). I am really good at loving and nurturing, and since I am lucky enough to be married to a lady who is smarter than I am, I pretty well beg her to 'officiate' whenever she feels like it. Mark you, she is very loving too, which is nice.

It is the 21st century. Human beings in a relationship get to work out the balance of who does what and when for themselves. Some folks are good at some things, some at others, and they can (wow!) even get to take turns at different things, depending on how they feel.

[_Roger Morrison]

Roger,

"You need to trust God through me; I know what is best for you."

How many times you (and LDS Leaders) have implied that very thing, over the years, I can't count. In this very thread I think you suggested the person who opened this topic would ignore your counsel at risk of their eternal destiny...

Were you equally questioning when you heard these same phrases from Moses? From Christ? From Paul?

Gaz, first, are you suggesting that IF I did not question Moses, Christ or Paul that I (nor anyone else) should question Gaz? Seems you might be seeing yourself in a high-&-lofty position??

Second, I didn't hear(d) anything from those luminaries. I have read reports of them written centuries after the so-called events. All of which I find interesting. A few of which have philosophical merrit...

You, OTOH, are in the first-person present with your grandios presumptions of Priesthood powers that are by all measurements base-less, mythology. To be believed or not as one's disposition determines...

Thanks for your candor, you leave little doubt about Gaz ;-)... How did your "lesson" go?
Warm regards,
Roger
*
*

[_truth dancer]

Hi Gaz,

My apologies for being snarky.

Apology accepted!

While I do understand your point, I don't understand where it is your making your statement from. I don't understand where it is your stand.

My personal beliefs are really unimportant to my point.

I'm suggesting that there is NO way to know if your "truth" is really "the" truth.

Yes, you claim inspiration from God... so do other's in different religions.

You claim a testimony, so do others.

You claim your rituals are the rights ones... so do others.

You claim you have authority... most think this is nonsense, In other words, who cares? Still others claim divine authority. (FLDS, Catholics, etc).

You claim you have lots of members so it must be true... to most of the world, the LDS church is barely a blip on the screen.

You claim your church makes sense... most think it is totally farcical, yet other's think theirs is the religion that makes sense.

You claim more understanding, others think they are the more enlightened.

You claim healings and miracles... others claim the same.

The point is, you can't come up with a single thing that separates belief in the LDS church from the other religions of the world. (I'm not talking about doctrine, I'm talking about how and why people believe as they do).

As strong as is your testimony/belief/"knowledge" of God, so to is the testimony of billions of others around the world... from Muslim terrorists, to FLDSs, to Catholics, to Hindu Swamis, to Buddhist monks, to Sikhs, to Shintos, to Taoists, to Native American spiritualists, etc. etc. etc. etc.

You are no different Gaz.

You seem to me to be making the arguement that there is no God, or that if there is that he (Or she/it in your case?) remains unknown.

There may be a God, or Gods, or Aliens, or all sorts of things in this Universe, who knows? We are very new species, on a teeny tiny little planet orbiting one of a hundred billion stars, in one of a hundred billion galaxies, on one little universe.

Just a guess but I don't think we have it all figured out yet. In spite of what Joseph Smith & Co thought, in spite of what some humans today think. We are just beginning to even experience self-awareness, language, compassion... trust me, there is more to come.

What is it exactly that your trying to say? That no religion is true. Right, I got it.

Nope... I'm trying to say that all may have some truth, all may have lots of mistakes, some may be better at helping people than others, some may be seriously harmful.

But, how can anyone really know? If everyone believes theirs is the truth, if everyone claims to know God, if everyones experiences of life confirm their beliefs, if everyones spiritual experiences supports their claims, how can you tell which is the true one, or what is truth?

ALL religions seem to be an attempt by various men to know the mysteries of existence.

Because some people think they have figured it all out doesn't make it true. Men (not humankind) have been guessing at truth for a long time. But that is all it is, a guess.

In spite of your conviction and testimony, Mormonism is a guess debateably as good as any others. Remember, people around the world feel similarly as strong and convicted as do you.

Then what? If you believe in absolute truths, please express to me what it is I should be understanding in regards to my relationship to God.

I think the mysteries of existence are still largely unknowable to humankind. As I stated, we are just beginning to figure a few things out.

It was only ten thousand years ago that people realized they could plant seeds and they would grow. Only what forty thousand years ago that our ancestors began speaking a primitive clicking language. Written language is only five thousand years old. The knowledge of evolution is only 150 years old (tomorrow is the anniversary of The Origin of Species...go Darwin). We discovered germs only a hundred years ago, DNA only fifty years ago.

My point is we are just at the beginning. The very, very beginning. We are discovering the mysteries every day but we have a long way to go and lots of surprises ahead!

I believe there is truth, we know some, but truth only comes to us as we are able to observe or experience it.

Anything else is just a guess.

What you consider truth given to you by the spirit is only as good as the "truth" given to the rest of the world by the spirit.

This is what you can't seem to accept.

Many LDS believe THEIRS is the real spirit, their testimony is somehow different than people in the rest of the world, their beliefs more true than the rest of the world. Their healing power better than everyone else's, their "authority" (whatever this is), the real one.

The only reason you see truth in the Mormon worldview is because it is the one you have accepted as truth, so your experience of life confirms it. Just like everyone else who holds to their truth as the one and only.

Does this help you to better understand my point?

Here is a question: if you were born into Islam, taught from the Koran, indoctrinated into its belief system, immersed into its culture praying five times a day from birth, what chance do you think you would have converting to Mormonism?

You will probably suggest something along the lines of... "well, they have the truth that they can handle, or there are reasons Muslims are given the little light that they have, they were not as valient in the pre-existence, or they are not the chosen, elect of god, etc. etc.. Mormons have the real truth."

Can you see that THEY believe they are the ones with the real truth and YOU are mistaken or only given a little (if any) light?

Hope that helps to explain my point...



~td~

[_Chap]

[...]

Here is a question: if you were born into Islam, taught from the Koran, indoctrinated into its belief system, immersed into its culture praying five times a day from birth, what chance do you think you would have converting to Mormonism?

You will probably suggest something along the lines of... "well, they have the truth that they can handle, or there are reasons Muslims are given the little light that they have, they were not as valient in the pre-existence, or they are not the chosen, elect of god, etc. etc.. Mormons have the real truth."

Can you see that THEY believe they are the ones with the real truth and YOU are mistaken or only given a little (if any) light?

Those people may think they are right, but they are wrong, because as LDS we have a testimony that we are right.

The fact that God thinks Muslims have a less accurate view of his wishes than LDS is shown clearly by the fact that he has massively blessed the CoJCoLDS, and made it a powerful religion dominating a number of major countries. His lack of interest in Islam is shown by the fact that he has caused it to remain confined to one of the less interesting parts of the United States, with minimal influence elsewhere.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me,

Well, it does depend on the family. But former members can live a life outside the church for themselves if they wish. Sure there are obligations but that would be true for any religion that one leaves. But one can still live one's own life.

No leaving the LDS church is not the same as any old other religion out there.

It IS the same as leaving very rigid, controlled, strict, fundamentalist, authoritarian religions and cults. From what I have observed and read, "apostates" from religions such as Scientology, JW, Islam, FLDS, and others share a similar experience as those who leave Mormonism.

When ones entire family, culture, community, consider you an evil sinner following the temptations of Satan, it is pretty difficlut to not have the church in ones life.

When a parent is not allowed to see a child get married, when a child is excluded from family gatherings, when siblings have to pretend to believe so as not to hurt their parents, when a person's life would be destroyed by sharing their non-belief, it makes it difficult, if not impossible to leave Mormonism behind.

Having said this, I know of no former LDS believer who doesn't have their "own life". For many people, it is as if leaving actually allows them to have an authentic life.

~td~

Chap....

[_Seven]

No leaving the LDS church is not the same as any old other religion out there.

It IS the same as leaving very rigid, controlled, strict, fundamentalist, authoritarian religions and cults. From what I have observed and read, "apostates" from religions such as Scientology, JW, Islam, FLDS, and others share a similar experience as those who leave Mormonism.

When ones entire family, culture, community, consider you an evil sinner following the temptations of Satan, it is pretty difficlut to not have the church in ones life.

When a parent is not allowed to see a child get married, when a child is excluded from family gatherings, when siblings have to pretend to believe so as not to hurt their parents, when a person's life would be destroyed by sharing their non-belief, it makes it difficult, if not impossible to leave Mormonism behind.

Having said this, I know of no former LDS believer who doesn't have their "own life". For many people, it is as if leaving actually allows them to have an authentic life.

~td~

Chap....

You nailed it.

Gaz,
It's the LDS members who won't leave the apostates alone. They can't accept the real reason for their departure and continue to say very harmful things to family and friends about their change of faith. "Satan has a hold on them", "it must be a hidden sin", "they never had a real testimony" "they weren't faithful to the church", "I can feel they have lost the spirit", "their children are going to turn out bad now", "they were duped by anti Mormon lies", "they should have read their scriptures more", "apostates always leave because of sin" etc. In some cases they even keep other family members from associating with them.
They go to great lengths in demonizing the apostate, and destroying their character and intellect, and believe they have lost their eternal family and salvation.

Then if apostates go online to vent about the bigotry and ignorance from LDS family or members, the reasons they left the church, or the damaging history, they accuse them of "fighting the church."

[_Inconceivable]

TD and Seven, I beleive you said it best.

Gaz,

You are under the delusion that in order for belief to be legitimate, it must be found within an organized religeon. Who do you think taught you this?

Why me,

We can't even agree on a definition from a standard dictionary.

[_Gazelam]

Dancer,

My personal beliefs are really unimportant to my point.

Actually they are perfectly relevant, how do you know what you believe? How did you come to those conclusions?

I'm suggesting that there is NO way to know if your "truth" is really "the" truth.

Revealing the truth is the responsibility of the Holy Ghost. He is the member of the Godhead whose resposibilty it is to bear testimony to us. Without him and the revelations he gives to us, it is impossible to know God.

That is why the Book of Mormon is so important. By following Moronis promise you are asked to ask through prayer a yes or no question, to which the Holy Ghost responds. You then learn how to receive revelation, and you also learn that the Book of Mormon, and all that is connected to it is true.

You learn where you can stand to find God and worship him in truth.

You claim healings and miracles... others claim the same.

I do not dount that faithful prayers can heal, and they don't have to be members of the church for these prayes to be honored.

We are very new species, on a teeny tiny little planet orbiting one of a hundred billion stars, in one of a hundred billion galaxies, on one little universe.

And you know this how?

But, how can anyone really know? If everyone believes theirs is the truth, if everyone claims to know God, if everyones experiences of life confirm their beliefs, if everyones spiritual experiences supports their claims, how can you tell which is the true one, or what is truth?

If God doesent reveal himself, then he is not a God really is he?

Over the centuries there have been alot of different philosophies and beliefs. Lots of truths mingled with philosophies. Ever since the family of Cain removed themselves from Adam and Seths family lots of beliefs have sprung up. I don't want to know philosophies, I want to know what Adam was taught by the three angels.

The "Sent Ones" are found in more places than just Mormon scripture. There are numerous accounts of the instruction Adam received to return to the Father. Including the teaching of initiation rights and hand clasps that are needed.

that's what so great. Not only can you rely on the Holy Ghost teaching you what is true, you can study these things out and compare the various testimonies from around the world and see how they all tie together.

Here is a question: if you were born into Islam, taught from the Koran, indoctrinated into its belief system, immersed into its culture praying five times a day from birth, what chance do you think you would have converting to Mormonism?

I would hope that I could have the true gospel taught to me in a manner that I would accept it. Hopefully in the next 10 to 20 years we will have missionaries in Iraq and we will see how the gospel is accepted there. We'll be able to put your question to the test.

Can you see that THEY believe they are the ones with the real truth and YOU are mistaken or only given a little (if any) light?

Sure I believe that. My mom has a drawer full of anti Mormon literature from her baptist sister that tells me how wrong I am and how right the baptists are.

The Holy Ghost and ancient and modern scripture tell me how right I am.

They also tell you if you'll listen.