Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_Daniel Peterson]

You said in rural areas, which is what most of the country is comprised of, it's the backward men who keep their women and girls from being educated. Now what religion rules Afghanistan, and is especially entrenched in rural Afghanistan? Oh yes. Islam. What drives how people interact with each other in rural Afghanistan? Oh yes. Very traditional Islam. What most influences the men in power in rural Afghanistan? Oh yes. Very patriarchal Islam.

I see it as no stretch to put Islam at the base of the problem of 87% of Afghan women being illiterate and 70% of Afghan girls never attending school, since Islam is what drives Afghan men. While remoteness may contribute to the issue, and poverty is definitely in the mix, to deny that Islam, a conservative, traditional, patriarchal Islam, but no one would confuse it with any other religion, is at the base is simply willful blindness.

Now what religion rules Qatar and Syria and Egypt and Malaysia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates? Oh yes. Islam.

What drives how people interact with each other in Qatar and Syria and Egypt and Malaysia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates? Oh yes. Islam.

What most influences the men in power in Qatar and Syria and Egypt and Malaysia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates? Oh yes. Islam.

If you see it as no stretch to put Islam at the base of the problem of 87% of Afghan women being illiterate and 70% of Afghan girls never attending school, since Islam is what drives Afghan men, what do you think it is, since Islam is what drives men in Qatar and Syria and Egypt and Malaysia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, that is at the base of the very significantly higher literacy rates in those Islamic nations?

Remoteness certainly contributes to the issue, and poverty is definitely in the mix, and to assert that Islam itself is at the base, without acknowledging the problem posed to that notion by the fact that Islam hasn't had the same effect in Qatar and Syria and Egypt and Malaysia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates, is simply willful blindness.

If the leaders, all Islamic and faithful, were truly living their religion (if you are to be believed), we'd see women's literacy rates at least the equivalent of men's, across the country. But we don't. We'd see schools of girls sprouting up across the country, instead of being burned down. We'd see all young girls being encouraged to gain an education. But we don't. We'd see 90% of young girls attending school, instead of a miserable 30%. We'd see 87% of women as literate, not 87% as illiterate.

Your friend, the Minister of Education, is doing a piss poor job, Daniel. And he's a Muslim.

If the Third World just had you, Harmony, all its problems would be solved overnight. (They're simple, really. Somebody just needs to want to fix them, and they'll be immediately fixed!) You shouldn't be spending so much time on message boards; the poor and oppressed of all six inhabited continents need you. Desperately.

Perhaps it would be most correct to say that traditional conservative patriarchal Islam, which holds power in certain sections of the globe, including most of Afghanistan, does not allow education for women and girls.

But that would be false. Traditional patriarchal Islam holds power in Qatar and Syria and Egypt and Malaysia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates and many other places where women receive educations extending, in many cases, through doctoral degrees. Women teach on the faculty of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, for example -- the foremost bastion of traditional patriarchal Islam in the Sunni Arab world for nearly a thousand years. (Incidentally, I had lunch this afternoon at a table that included three Egyptian women: one is a graduate student in economics, another has a master's degree in linguistics, and the third holds a doctorate in English literature. Devout Muslims all.)

That way, your more progressive friends can be held blameless for the appalling literacy rates in much of Afghanistan, the burned schools become not their problem, the girls killed for attending school become not their problem. And you don't have to acknowledge the plight of Afghan women either. A win-win for you and your Islamic friends! Of course, 87% of Afghan women are still illiterate, but your Islamic friends can wash their hands of the situation and never worry about blaming their conservative, traditional, patriarchal religious counterparts

Your contemptibly arrogant and unjust rant is more poorly aimed than you can possibly know and almost certainly more than you would ever care to acknowledge.

Stay away, far away, from a career in social justice, Daniel. You're much better suited for academia or politics.

You're back on your smugly ignorant judgment seat, I see.

How dare you suggest that people who've devoted their lives to trying to educate women in Afghanistan and elsewhere don't care about burned schools or murdered schoolgirls? Really. How dare you? What have you done for the cause of educating women in the Third World? How many visits have you paid to rural villages in the Arab and Islamic world? How much have you been involved with building schools in Africa and the Middle East? And how dare you suggest that I don't care about the plight of Afghan women? What do you really know about me, you appallingly ignorant and complacently judgmental [CHARITY FORBIDS APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION HERE]?

[_antishock8]

In my girl's class of 20, there are 3 boys who terrorize everyone else. 3. It only takes a handful of assholes to ruin life for everyone else.

In the Islamic world you only need a small percentage of Islamists who interpret their religious texts in a manner that compels them to act the way they do in order to terrorize and subjugate a larger percentage of peaceful people. People who don't want to fight. People who don't want to put everything on the line to ensure basic, fundamental, human rights.

Yes. It's Islam that compels these men to do what they do. It is. You don't have to be an apologist for a religion that spawns this kind of "fruit". What kind of ideology creates thousands of violent acts a year in any given country? It's Islam. Etc etc etc....

I'm not sure why there's a desire to displace their behavior onto other aspects of the human condition. Other countries that are dominated by Christianity, Buddhism, etc... Just don't suffer the same kind of ills. It's Jihadism... That's what it is.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Yes. It's Islam that compels these men to do what they do. It is. You don't have to be an apologist for a religion that spawns this kind of "fruit".

I'm not an apologist for Islam. I'm an intellectual historian. And the fruit produced by Islamic civilization includes not only today's violent fundamentalists but Sufi poets like Rumi, and architecture like the Alhambra and the Taj Mahal and the Mausoleum of Sultan Hassan and the Blue Mosque of Istanbul, and philosophers like Ibn SIna and al-Ghazali and Mullah Sadra and Ibn Rushd, and social theorists like Ibn Khaldun, and mystics like Junayd and Ibn al-‘Arabi, and historians like al-Tabari, and the illustrations of the Shahnameh and the Mi‘rajnameh, and the allegories of Ibn Tufayl and Farid al-Din ‘Attar, and Persian lyricists like Sa‘di and Hafez, and satirists like Ibn al-Muqaffa‘, and Arab poets like al-Mutanabbi‘ and Abu Nuwas and Abu al-‘Atahiyya, and the Thousand and One Nights, and ‘Umar-i Khayyam's Ruba‘iyyat, and the great city square of Isfahan, and thousands of other wonderful things.

What kind of ideology creates thousands of violent acts a year in any given country? It's Islam. Etc etc etc....

It's been Islam. Sort of. It's also been Communism, Nazism, Fascism, Mongol expansionism, Assyrian militarism, French imperialism, general greed and bloodlust, and so forth. Humans can and do treat each other very poorly even without ideological impetus. Attila the Hun needed no ideology to do what he did.

I'm not sure why there's a desire to displace their behavior onto other aspects of the human condition. Other countries that are dominated by Christianity, Buddhism, etc... Just don't suffer the same kind of ills. It's Jihadism... That's what it is.

Take suicide bombing, for example. Firmly associated, in the public mind, with Islam. Yet pioneered by the Tamil Tigers of Sri Linka, who, if they profess any religion at all, are Hindus, but who seem motivated entirely by secular principles.

And do you really, seriously, imagine that Buddhist countries in Asia don't have long histories of bloody imperialism and war?

[_Ray A]

I think it depends on geographical location rather than religion. Indonesia, for example, with a population of 240 million-plus, is the most populous Muslim country in the world (86% Muslim). It has a 90% literacy rate (male: 94%, female: 86%) for those over 15.

Indonesia is now the world's third-largest democracy, the world's largest archipelagic state, and home to the world's largest Muslim population. Current issues include: alleviating poverty, improving education, preventing terrorism, consolidating democracy after four decades of authoritarianism, implementing economic and financial reforms, stemming corruption, holding the military and police accountable for past human rights violations, addressing climate change, and controlling avian influenza. In 2005, Indonesia reached a historic peace agreement with armed separatists in Aceh, which led to democratic elections in December 2006. Indonesia continues to face a low intensity separatist movement in Papua.

The authoritarianism came about because of the mitilary dictatorship of General Suharto, and that had nothing to do with Islam.

On May 29, 2000, Suharto was placed under house arrest when Indonesian authorities began to investigate the corruption during his regime. In July 2000, it was announced that he was to be accused of embezzling US$571 million of government donations to one of a number of foundations under his control and then using the money to finance family investments. But in September court-appointed doctors announced that he could not stand trial because of his declining health. State prosecutors tried again in 2002 but then doctors cited an unspecified brain disease.

In contrast Afghanistan:

Despite the progress of the past few years, Afghanistan is extremely poor, landlocked, and highly dependent on foreign aid, agriculture, and trade with neighboring countries. Much of the population continues to suffer from shortages of housing, clean water, electricity, medical care, and jobs. Criminality, insecurity, and the Afghan Government's inability to extend rule of law to all parts of the country pose challenges to future economic growth.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Thank you, Ray, for a lucid and fair post.

[_antishock8]

Are some of you actually acting like Islam isn't responsible for the absurd Jihadist violence, misogyny, and historical genocides that have occurred in Dar El Islam? Really? It's "poverty"? It's "land-locked" geography? You mean in Saudi Arabia the totalitarian Islamism has to do with... Hrm... SAND and SUN????

C'mon, now.

Throughout the Arab world and Islamic hegemony there is a consistent and persistent anti-woman and anti-Freedom mindset. It has to do with Shariah as dictated by the Sunni ulemah(s), as interpreted through the Quran and Hadiths. To say otherwise is stunningly irresponsible. I guess I don't understand the desire to exculpate Islam for what it has wrought upon the world as of 2009.

[_antishock8]

Darfur.

Turkey.

Spain.

9/11.

Constantinople.

On and on... NOTHING has ANYTHING to do with Islam. Jesus. It's always something else. That's just crazy. It's as if Nazism didn't have anything to do with Germanic aggression in Europe. damned Christ. What's wrong with you people who do what you do on behalf of this violent and anti-Freedom ideology? Are you actually down with Islam on some level?

[_The Nehor]

Let's not forget the real reason we don't want women educated:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjxY9rZw ... playnext=1

[_Ray A]

I guess I don't understand the desire to exculpate Islam for what it has wrought upon the world as of 2009.

No one is exculpating it. I move among Muslims all the time, and they are the ones most concerned about the extremists in their own community. They are not organised like the Mormons or JWs, and most of them do not have control over Imams. Taj el-Din al-Hilali, the Imam who granted himself the title of "Grand Mufti" was not supported by all of the Islamic community, and was financially supported by a Libyan Islamic society and private individuals. Many Muslims condemned his words and actions.

With one billion adherents worldwide, of course extremists will spring up.

From Time, "RELIGIOUS WARS A Bloody zeal".

These conflicts are, of course, more complicated than religious fanaticism; they have a great deal to do with economic discrimination, battles for political power, questions of deeply laminated social difference. Nor do the wars involve religious doctrine—except in oblique, complex ways. A Belfast pub is not blown up to assert the Real Presence or the Virgin Birth. Many of the terrorists are atheists anyway. In such places as Ireland and Lebanon, religious leaders on all sides have prayed and pleaded for an end to the fighting. The I.R.A. is filled with the excommunicated, whose religious observances are limited to theatrical funerals for its martyrs. But the violence persists with a life of its own, like a hereditary disease. It is an anomaly of such conflicts that organized religion is powerless to stop them—as if a war involving religion were too important to be left to churchmen.

And in Ireland, something I saw firsthand as I lived in Ireland for a year, where the IRA tried to recruit me:

One writer, Miriam Reik, has claimed, "Were Ireland an African island and its natives black, no one would doubt that Ulster's troubles show the classical symptoms of a colonial struggle." That is true enough. Since the 17th century's Scottish and English Protestant settlers came to Ulster under the protection of the British Crown, the native Catholic minority has been relegated to permanently inferior status. Yet the conflict has a strong tribal aspect, with religion serving as the identifying element, even though groups such as the I.R.A. are now more likely to quote Marx than Jesus. Protestants like the demagogue Ian Paisley have kept the "religious threat" alive by constantly referring to the dangers of "popery" and "Romanism."

The article is a bit dated, but it's basically a critical look at the roles of religion, war, politics and culture. No analysis can ever be seamless, but it seems clear that nationalism, culture and sovereignty issues play a big role in warfare and terrorism.

We must not forget the Christian/Muslim body count, either:

* 1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].
* Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems
* 1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.
* 50,000 Pilgrims died of disease.
* 1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.
* Siege of Tiberias: 30,000 Christians k.
* Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks
* Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.
* 1291: 100,000 Christians k after fall of Acre.
* Fall of Christian Antioch: 17,000 massacred.
* [TOTAL: 677,000 listed in these episodes here.]

If you care to go through the details, you'll see that Muslims have in fact not played a major role in the worst massacres in history:

Selected Death Tolls for Wars, Massacres and Atrocities Before the 20th Century.

No wonder Voltaire said, "History is nothing but a tableau of crimes and misfortunes".

[_Daniel Peterson]

Are some of you actually acting like Islam isn't responsible for the absurd Jihadist violence, misogyny, and historical genocides that have occurred in Dar El Islam?

Obviously Islam is connected with jihadist violence. But the vast majority of Muslims aren't jihadists.

Does Islam contribute to misogyny? In some places fairly little; in other places quite a bit. But misogyny thrives among non-Muslims, as well.

As for historical genocides, you'll have to be more specific. The Armenian genocide, for example (assuming that it occurred as commonly accepted), had very little to do with Islam, but a great deal to do with Turkish nationalism.

I guess I don't understand the desire to exculpate Islam for what it has wrought upon the world as of 2009.

Nor do I.

Darfur.

Deir Yassin.

Turkey.

Nice place. Beautiful architecture.

Spain.

Gorgeous buildings, wonderful poetry, huge libraries, great philosophers, Jewish prime ministers serving under Muslim amirs.

9/11.

Cambodian killing fields.

Constantinople.

Istanbul!

On and on... NOTHING has ANYTHING to do with Islam.

That's sounds perfectly nonsensical. What idiot says it?

Jesus. f*****g Christ.

???

What's wrong with you people who do what you do on behalf of this violent and anti-Freedom ideology? Are you actually down with Islam on some level?

No. I just prefer accuracy over cartoons.