Now beastie lets get serious here. Members know what happened in Liberty Jail. In fact, BYU TV had it on as part of the JSP episodes. What gives Mormons faith is also in their history. Joseph Smith and the others suffering in the prison writing letters of soul to Emma and eventually writing what would become three sections in the D&C. Nothing gave a hint that he was a fraudster when he was in prison with sidey and the others craping a bucket, eating leftovers from the guards and sleeping on hay for months as 11 'so called' (if I use your idea) witnesses were free as a bird with their mouths unlocked.
No sense being there if just one or two were doing the canary song. My fraudster mind would want to know before I face my death or keep craping in my overly shared bucket.
Ok, let's go with this. Let's say that Joseph Smith was a knowing fraud who preferred not to die for his fraud.
What do you imagine that this Joseph Smith could have done that would have resolved the situation?
Do you imagine that him simply standing up and asserting "HEY, I made it all up" would solve his problems?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote: I agree that it's an open question with Joseph Smith. I also agree that people sometimes get involved in situations that end up blowing up out of control in a way they never anticipated. After all, there are plenty of criminals who end up getting killed in the process of committing the crime. That doesn't mean that the criminal in question considered the crime worthy of the sacrifice of his/her life. It just means that the situation blew up out of control, in a way that the criminal did not anticipate. So Joseph Smith being killed due to his religious endeavors does not necessarily mean he genuinely believed in what he was teaching.
However, I think there can be little doubt that Sidney Rigdon was a True Believer. He was consumed by this belief his entire life - in a way that, it could be argued, destroyed his sanity.
Sidney would have given it all up when Joseph Smith approached his daughter. Not to menion the beating and liberty jail. Joseph Smith however had no idea what was happening on the outside. If there were other fraudsters the first thing I would want to know is just what those guys are now saying now that I am down for the count. But he did not care. Why? Because he had no reason to care.
A fraudster is always concerned about their fraud not being discovered. But Joe was not bothered by any of those witnesses. He carried on.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
why me wrote: Members know what happened in Liberty Jail. In fact, BYU TV had it on as part of the JSP episodes.
BYU doing a special on an aspect of Joseph Smith's life sounds completely objective. No hint of potential bias there. It almost sounds as reliable as an Al-Jazeera special on Mohammed's life.
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains.
beastie wrote: I agree that it's an open question with Joseph Smith. I also agree that people sometimes get involved in situations that end up blowing up out of control in a way they never anticipated. After all, there are plenty of criminals who end up getting killed in the process of committing the crime. That doesn't mean that the criminal in question considered the crime worthy of the sacrifice of his/her life. It just means that the situation blew up out of control, in a way that the criminal did not anticipate. So Joseph Smith being killed due to his religious endeavors does not necessarily mean he genuinely believed in what he was teaching.
However, I think there can be little doubt that Sidney Rigdon was a True Believer. He was consumed by this belief his entire life - in a way that, it could be argued, destroyed his sanity.
Sidney would have given it all up when Joseph Smith approached his daughter. Not to menion the beating and liberty jail. Joseph Smith however had no idea what was happening on the outside. If there were other fraudsters the first thing I would want to know is just what those guys are now saying now that I am down for the count. But he did not care. Why? Because he had no reason to care.
A fraudster is always concerned about their fraud not being discovered. But Joe was not bothered by any of those witnesses. He carried on.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Sidney would have given it all up when Joseph Smith approached his daughter. Not to menion the beating and liberty jail. Joseph Smith however had no idea what was happening on the outside. If there were other fraudsters the first thing I would want to know is just what those guys are now saying now that I am down for the count. But he did not care. Why? Because he had no reason to care.
A fraudster is always concerned about their fraud not being discovered. But Joe was not bothered by any of those witnesses. He carried on.
My question wasn't about Sidney.
If Joseph Smith knew he made it up, what could he have done that would have resolved his situation?
And, by the way, Joseph did care about what the witnesses were saying. He was eager to defame their characters when they strayed. In other words, he defamed their characters in the obvious hope of convincing others believers to disregard what they may be saying.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
why me wrote: Members know what happened in Liberty Jail. In fact, BYU TV had it on as part of the JSP episodes.
BYU doing a special on an aspect of Joseph Smith's life sounds completely objective. No hint of potential bias there. It almost sounds as reliable as an Al-Jazeera special on Mohammed's life.
The point is that Joseph Smith showed signs of wavering in the face of such adversity. Also, we need to remember the 11 witnesses who certainly would have been in on the fraud. They said nothing but Joseph Smith would not know that. He languished in prison in very poor conditions. As a fraudster I would want to know just what those guys are now saying. wouldn't you? I would never expect all 11 to keep their mouths shut.
Why die when the gig could be up?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
The point is that Joseph Smith showed signs of wavering in the face of such adversity. Also, we need to remember the 11 witnesses who certainly would have been in on the fraud. They said nothing but Joseph Smith would not know that. He languished in prison in very poor conditions. As a fraudster I would want to know just what those guys are now saying. wouldn't you? I would never expect all 11 to keep their mouths shut.
Why die when the gig could be up?
Once again, what could Joseph Smith have done that would have resolved his situation?
And, once again, Joseph Smith was very interested in defaming the witnesses when they strayed. This shows he was concerned about what they were saying. He wanted to discredit them immediately.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.
beastie wrote: However, I think there can be little doubt that Sidney Rigdon was a True Believer. He was consumed by this belief his entire life - in a way that, it could be argued, destroyed his sanity.
I have no doubt that many of the people around Joe really believed what he was peddling. I just have a hard time believing Joe himself did, unless he was certifiably insane (which I suppose is also possible).
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
If Joseph Smith knew he made it up, what could he have done that would have resolved his situation?
And, by the way, Joseph did care about what the witnesses were saying. He was eager to defame their characters when they strayed. In other words, he defamed their characters in the obvious hope of convincing others believers to disregard what they may be saying.
He could have fessed up. If the witnesses would have gotten together and signed a statement that it was all a hoax Joseph Smith would be doing a John Strang and his church would disappear. And it all would begin to unravel.
A fraudster with any salt would not attack fellow fraudsters unless they needed to be attacked and most likely it would be when they would have spoken out against what they signed. Not before.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith