KEP Dictation Argument: The Evidence

[_wenglund]

Thank you for your opinion on the matter. I should have clarified that what I'm really interested in is whether or not Will ever specified, anywhere, whether or not he was referring to the Anthon document. Since you said "most likely not", it would appear that he has not made that clarification.

To my knowledge, there is no mention in Will's presentation of anything having to do with Anthon. The alleged Anthon connection came from our beloved Kevin Graham and the several similarites he supposes between the "Anthon Caracters" and the Egytian Counting document.

All that William has spoken to is the similarities he found between certain characters in the KEP and the Masonic cipher.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Kevin Graham]

It is very simple and obvious (it isn't encrypted). My point is that, contrary to Kevin's claim, one can use a 4 as a 4 when ciphering a message

Contrary to my claim? Please show me where I ever said someone could never be so stupid as to try using the number 4 to represent the number 4 in an encryption.

Do you really think your examples proves something? 4 = the sound "for" and you think this somehow helps Will's baseless argument? Really wade? This is hardly what Will's explanation of the Egyptian Numbers page suggests, anyway. What next, 1 = "won", 2 = "too", 8 = "ate," 9 = "no in German"? 10 = "thin metal"?

To my knowledge, there is no mention in Will's presentation of anything having to do with Anthon. The alleged Anthon connection came from our beloved Kevin Graham and the several similarites he supposes between the "Anthon Caracters" and the Egytian Counting document.

Yes, I illustrated that some of the characters Will identified as "Masonic" more closely resembled characters from the Anthon Transcript. The reason Will didn't mention the Anthon Transcript is because he is pushing for the Masonic connection to further is crazy enciphering theory. A classic case of a thesis driving the evidence and his audience. The more Masonic characters that are involved, the stronger the argument. However, the Anthon Transcript shows characters that allagedly derive from Reformed "Egyptian," and Will is trying to drive people away from the obvious fact that Joseph Smith believed these numbers represented the Egyptian numbering system.

[_wenglund]

It is very simple and obvious (it isn't encrypted). My point is that, contrary to Kevin's claim, one can use a 4 as a 4 when ciphering a message

Contrary to my claim? Please show me where I ever said someone could never be so stupid as to try using the number 4 to represent the number 4 in an encryption.

Do you really think your examples proves something? 4 = the sound "for" and you think this somehow helps Will's baseless argument? Really wade? This is hardly what Will's explanation of the Egyptian Numbers page suggests, anyway. What next, 1 = "won", 2 = "too", 8 = "ate," 9 = "no in German"? 10 = "thin metal"?

You are bearly scratching the surface of my point. Think a little more deeply about my first ciphered message, and perhaps the substance of my point may dawn on you.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Kevin Graham]

Gee, when faced with the fact he's misrepresented someone, wade responds acting as if we're somehow making his point. Where have we heard this before?

Again, show me where I said no one could ever use 4 to encipher 4.

[_wenglund]

Yes, I illustrated that some of the characters Will identified as "Masonic" more closely resembled characters from the Anthon Transcript. The reason Will didn't mention the Anthon Transcript is because he is pushing for the Masonic connection to further is crazy enciphering theory. A classic case of a thesis driving the evidence and his audience. The more Masonic characters that are involved, the stronger the argument. However, the Anthon Transcript shows characters that allagedly derive from Reformed "Egyptian," and Will is trying to drive people away from the obvious fact that Joseph Smith believed these numbers represented the Egyptian numbering system.

I am quite certain that you don't have an accurate grasp of Will's case in this regard.

But, that is okay since you are only responsible for making your own case.

And, you are just getting started with your case by pointing out similarities between several of the KEP characters and the "Anthon Caracters". Your next hurdle is to explain all the characters that don't match up with the "Anthon Caracters" or characters on the Egyptian papyri, and this not only after you have surmounted the dubious provinence of the "Anthon Caracters" and whether they are really Reformed Egyptian and whether Joseph ever saw them or had anything to do with them or not, but also whether your hypothesis better matches the data than what Will and others propose.

Were that not enough, you will need to explain the important matter regarding the KEP "sounds", which don't seem to be Egyptian, but more Latin or Arimaic. Good luck with that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_wenglund]

Again, show me where I said no one could ever use 4 to encipher 4.

See if this doesn't sound the least bit familiar to you:

"Also, if you want to encipher the number four, you don't use a symbol taht looks identical to '4'." (Hint: the person who stated this has the enitials KG)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mercury]

.

Is the point to try and show how much about cryptography we know? If so then please recover the plain text from the following:

$Second Amendment$12$7BH77xkE3mC.1TFxwOYtXem6ZbwFHfRSP1WJ4lo/0omg1iriU6wra

I'll even help you. It's the result of using 12 round bcrypt with a 12 character random salt, which you will find prepended to the string of characters. I'll give you 5 bucks if you figure it out. Good luck.

Everything I know about crypto I learned from Neal Stephenson.

I cracked the message.

It says: "Be sure to drink your ovaltine"

A crummy commercial? Son of a bitch!

[_wenglund]

Kevin,

Just for fun, download the image in my first example and use your graphics program to zoom in. See if you don't find something of interest there--which, if you do, then that is but the half of it.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_beastie]

I am quite certain that you don't have an accurate grasp of Will's case in this regard.

But, that is okay since you are only responsible for making your own case.

And, you are just getting started with your case by pointing out similarities between several of the KEP characters and the "Anthon Caracters". Your next hurdle is to explain all the characters that don't match up with the "Anthon Caracters" or characters on the Egyptian papyri, and this not only after you have surmounted the dubious provinence of the "Anthon Caracters" and whether they are really Reformed Egyptian and whether Joseph ever saw them or had anything to do with them or not, but also whether your hypothesis better matches the data than what Will and others propose.

Were that not enough, you will need to explain the important matter regarding the KEP "sounds", which don't seem to be Egyptian, but more Latin or Arimaic. Good luck with that.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

First, did Will give any reference for his "Masonic ciphers", or are we left guessing what Masonic ciphers, exactly, he used as a source?

Second, how would Joseph Smith know the difference between Egyptian, Latin, or Aramaic sounds?

[_wenglund]

First, did Will give any reference for his "Masonic ciphers", or are we left guessing what Masonic ciphers, exactly, he used as a source?

Will clearly displayed the Masonic cipher during his presentation, and even went so far as to animate how the cipher worked. Perhaps you should watch the presention so as to avoid having to ask these kinds of questions.

Besides, a quick Google-search for "Masonic Cipher" will yield the desired results.

Second, how would Joseph Smith know the difference between Egyptian, Latin, or Aramaic sounds?

Why are you assuming that the sounds had anything to do with what Joseph did or didn't know, let alone about those specific languages?

Would it interest you to learn that at about the same time that the KEP were being produced, Phelps and Joseph were also taking courses in Greek, Latin, and Hebrew?

Would it help you to also understand that the only Egyptian that Joseph or Phelps or anyone in the world at the time was exposed to, was written and not spoken, which should suggest something to the mind about the KEP "sounds" in relation to Egyptian.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-