Ghosts?

[_Buffalo]

You're right, I meant Law of Conservation of energy.

That still doesn't explain why you consider that law a joke.

I don't think it's a joke. I think your application of it to magical spirit states is a joke. Please demonstrate how this law applies to so-called spirits, using reason and hard data.

[_Jersey Girl]

We know what an active brain looks like, yes. We do not know what consciousness looks like. We can see its effects on the brain, but not consciousness itself. Again, if you are asserting that electrical impulses means consciousness, then my toaster is aware of itself and its place in the universe.

Yes, we do know what it looks like - consciousness looks like an active brain. Your toaster does not have the neural networks needed to be aware of itself. Try not to make dishonest arguments.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Belmont's toaster.



You see, Buffalo, there IS proof for conscious appliances.

:-)

[_Buffalo]

Apparently you are unfamiliar with Belmont's toaster.



You see, Buffalo, there IS proof for conscious appliances.

:-)

I always liked the Brave Little Toaster. Until now!

[_Jersey Girl]

Let's get back to this again and I freely admit that this thread would be far more enjoyable were the participants all drunk. ;-)

Belmont

One is that, because consciousness is energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it has to "exist" somewhere, in some form.

So Belmont, I pretty much think you're a crack pot on this but let's don't let that get in the way, okay? :-)

So why doesn't the energy leak out while we're alive?

[_Tarski]

Let's get back to this again and I freely admit that this thread would be far more enjoyable were the participants all drunk. ;-)

Belmont

One is that, because consciousness is energy and energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it has to "exist" somewhere, in some form.

So Belmont, I pretty much think you're a crack pot on this but let's don't let that get in the way, okay? :-)

So why doesn't the energy leak out while we're alive?

Of course, it does. It leaks in the form of high entropy heat and some of it is used for locomotion etc. We replenish it by by eating and this is the source of even the electro-chemical energy in the brain that Simon magically wants to simply identify with consciousness. Maybe our food is full of consciousness and we must eat to get it in us. I am what I eat they say. But that begs the question of "who" is the "who" of consciosness.

[_Redefined]

Maybe people just assign the energy they feel as "demon" or "angel", and it isn't anything more than a powerful demonstration of what the human mind can sense when the body is in a state that is more aware of its emotions. My first thought to this was that I think it is good that "demons" are much easier to see. . . as in embrace your demons because if ya follow from above, then it is embracing the powerful, aggressive, dominant, commanding, driven side of yourself or of humanity rather than the "angel" side which is the docile, reflective, softer side. Both are good, but I would say that the "demon" side is more solid.

ETA. . . nothing scary about it, it's just that the raw emotion of "demon" can be more overwhelming, rather than the calm, soothing effect of "angel".

Cool, Re.

Thanks Zeez,

When I first left the church, I spent a lot of time deep in thought about the supernatural and trying to reconcile my fading belief in folklore and the desire to still believe that there has to be something more after we die. In the end, the supernatural loses in lieu of the power of the human brain and how emotions can effect a person in seemingly independent-of-oneself sort of ways. :)

[_Quasimodo]

Of course, it does. It leaks in the form of high entropy heat and some of it is used for locomotion etc. We replenish it by by eating and this is the source of even the electro-chemical energy in the brain that Simon magically wants to simply identify with consciousness. Maybe our food is full of consciousness and we must eat to get it in us. I am what I eat they say. But that begs the question of "who" is the "who" of consciosness.

Just a thought (I certainly don't have answers). Could ghosts and all all those other strange things exist outside our world of energy? Could the accepted theory of nothingness suddenly becoming something (the big bang) point to a dimension that operates without the "energy" that we know and use to measure everything?

[_Simon Belmont]

Yes, we do know what it looks like - consciousness looks like an active brain. Your toaster does not have the neural networks needed to be aware of itself. Try not to make dishonest arguments.

No, I want to know what consciousness itself looks like. I want you to tell me exactly what it is like for me to experience red, love, and excitement.

My toaster may not have a human neural network, but it has circuitry, which is a network of electrical impulses, so why isn't it conscious?

The same subatomic particles that make up my toaster make up my brain and everything else in this universe, yet that does not explain why some things become consciousness and some do not. Can you explain it with the device you've invented?

There is nothing to indicate that consciousness can be separated from the brain, not in all the history of medical science. Since you are making incredible claims, it is up to you to post credible evidence.

There is nothing to indicate it because we do not have a device for measuring consciousness. Naturally, when we have no way of understanding something there are very few medical indications.

So you admit that non-living things don’t have consciousness? :)

They do not as far as we know, but they could. As I said, everything in the universe is made of the same stuff. Why are some things consciousness and some not?

It is amazing how often you use this all-purpose get out of jail card.
How in the world are we to recognize nonsense if we can't trust our rational judgement in the least. What a world you live in.

I use it because it's true. We don't know jack. We are microscopic specks of dust living on another microscopic speck of dust who have no idea about anything. So when you assert all of this scientific knowledge and evidence, it means you are viewing things from the point of view of a microscopic spec of dust. All of the dust I've talked to didn't know much either.

LOL

There is electricity in my computer too. Does this mean that if I smash it to bits there will still be computation floating around in the room?

No, because I do not believe that electrical current = consciousness. That was Buffalo's assertion. Ask him.

The fact that heat and electrical energy drain into the environment when a person dies says nothing about consciousness.

That's correct, because consciousness is not measured by these energies.

Consciouness isn't a magical fluid or gas and it is not energy either (it needs energy just like computation does). It is a description of a certain family complex abilities of organisms with sufficiently complex brains.

Why do some things which exist in the universe develop this ability while others do not, since everything is made of the same subatomic particles?

You are mistaken about the very nature of consciousness. It is more like self-representing high level computation than something simple and homogeneous like heat or electric current. It is no more able to float free of physical structure than other abstract notions such as information. No brains--> no consciousness for the same reason as no legs--> no walking,...... or no guitar---> no soaring clever guitar solo.

Tarski, I know you are a man of science, and that's noble and great, but how much do you really think we puny humans understand about the true nature of the universe and all of its citizens?

[_Simon Belmont]

Just a thought (I certainly don't have answers). Could ghosts and all all those other strange things exist outside our world of energy? Could the accepted theory of nothingness suddenly becoming something (the big bang) point to a dimension that operates without the "energy" that we know and use to measure everything?

C'est Vrai Quasimodo! I believe this is entirely possible! Humans don't know jack crap about anything, but we are so arrogant that we think we know everything.

[_Quasimodo]

C'est Vrai Quasimodo! I believe this is entirely possible! Humans don't know jack crap about anything, but we are so arrogant that we think we know everything.

Thanks Simon!

The older I get, the more apparent it becomes that I don't KNOW anything.