Banned to the Bone

[_Chap]

Kevin was an embarrassment to apologetics in the mid or late 90s; when I saw him banned on a list in which I participated. His fellow apologists just didn't like him. You're wrong.

Unfortunately, whereas what you say may be true for all I know, I suspect that I am not the only person for whom you do not have any credibility as a witness to facts against someone you dislike.

Your record of hyperbole in polemic stands against you.

[_Droopy]

With whom has my personal credibility collapsed? Can you please name some names?

As Kevin would say, with anyone that matters.

My only "defense" of Kevin consisted of pointing out that he has not been banned from a significant number of message boards or e-lists,

Yes he has, many of us have followed and been aware of the many times he's been shown the door, and your spin of the history will not change the facts of the matter.

and that when he was an LDS apologist, he was just as rude (if not worse) and yet he was always tolerated by his peers.

Which is your fabrication of the history. Pahoran, I, Selek, and others who, on occasion, give tit for tat to our interlocutors, have been suspended and sometimes banned, and on other occasions reprimanded by other posters, for exactly the same reasons. Kevin was never tolerated by his peers past the point that others were who returned fire on critics with less than calm academic urbanity.

If Kevin were still an apologist today, I have little doubt that you'd be among the most voracious defenders of his tone and style.

Then you have little experience with my overall tone and style (I've been here since 2006) and you are a provocateur just greasing the skids for your own agenda, for which Kevin is an able spokesman.

And unlike you, I cited actual facts and events to back up my points.

In which case, you have a deep misunderstanding of the terms "facts" and "evidence," as all you actually did was convey your impressions and recollections of the past:

I think Kevin was banned from an evangelical message board or two...

I recall a solitary list banning...

No, Yahoo Bot, my recollections are sincere...

I don't recall any bannings outside of the FAIR e-list and a possible evangelical board or two. If there are others, I did not know about them...

In other words, I and other apologists recall a long history of multiple bannings, and we think we remember that history correctly.

But then, what are our recollections against your sincere recollections?

[_Droopy]

I don't believe in hypotheticals.

Kevin was an embarrassment to apologetics in the mid or late 90s; when I saw him banned on a list in which I participated. His fellow apologists just didn't like him. You're wrong.

To make the point again, Jack, I've been around the "Internet Mormon" world for some time. Not as long as other old timers, but for a good stretch. I have few "recollections" of Kevin dating back as far as the mid to late nineties (although it was about 1998 that I first met Kerry Shirts on the Answering Mormonism site) but I do remember him as recently as 7 to 10 years ago.

Kevin was just as nasty, hostile, and intellectually arrogant to those who had the slightest criticism of George Bush and the Iraq war as he is now to anyone who looks cross eyed at Karl Marx or Rigoberta Menchu. And, contra your own recollection, Kevin has actually deteriorated since that time. He is now among that set of key anti-Apologists who target specific individuals for public character assassination and preoccupation with whom appears at or beyond the border of obsession.

And, of course, there are some others about who specialize in the same procedure.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Kevin was an embarrassment to apologetics in the mid or late 90s; when I saw him banned on a list in which I participated. His fellow apologists just didn't like him. You're wrong.

Unfortunately, whereas what you say may be true for all I know, I suspect that I am not the only person for whom you do not have any credibility as a witness to facts against someone you dislike.

Your record of hyperbole in polemic stands against you.

Let's see. I'm published in Mormon topics. I don't post anonymously.

And you?

[_Chap]

Let's see. I'm published in Mormon topics. I don't post anonymously.

And you?

Well, Mr Bot, the problem is that we are simply talking about how you post, and that has nothing to do with whether you are anonymous or not.

And for me at least, experience shows that when you think you can score a polemical point against a non-Mormon on this board you set pretty well no limits as to how far you are prepared to misrepresent what they have done or said for the sake of making your opponent look bad.

Of course, that is just my opinion, and it may well be that no-one else agrees with me,

[_MsJack]

Kevin was an embarrassment to apologetics in the mid or late 90s; when I saw him banned on a list in which I participated. His fellow apologists just didn't like him. You're wrong.

What a shame that the lot of you weren't more vocal about this alleged dislike back in the day, and didn't dislike him enough not to let him write and publish on the FAIR Web site. I mean, if I disliked a man and thought he was a major embarrassment to my religious subculture, there's no way I would let him write for me.

Guess that's just me though.

With whom has my personal credibility collapsed? Can you please name some names?

As Kevin would say, with anyone that matters.

In other words, you don't know anyone with whom I have "lost credibility" on account of my Schryver thread, and you're just making this up. Got it.

Yes he has, many of us have followed and been aware of the many times he's been shown the door, and your spin of the history will not change the facts of the matter.

Can you please name the forums and e-lists from which he was banned? The FAIR e-list banning has already been discussed. What else have you got?

Pahoran, I, Selek, and others who, on occasion, give tit for tat to our interlocutors, have been suspended and sometimes banned, and on other occasions reprimanded by other posters, for exactly the same reasons.

Could you please cite for me some examples of you, Pahoran, Selek, or others being reprimanded by your fellow apologists?

I and other apologists recall a long history of multiple bannings, and we think we remember that history correctly.

And yet, not one of you can name a specific forum or e-list from which Kevin was banned outside of what Kevin and myself have provided. A "long history of multiple bannings" and you have not a single specific for us? Really?

I have named very specific forums and events where I was actually involved, in addition to providing proof that Kevin was being published on the FAIR Web site in the early-to-mid 2000s. You've given us nothing.

You and Yahoo Bot may be sincere in your recollection of a "long history of multiple bannings," but until you can give me some specifics, you'll have to forgive me if I take your recollections with a grain of salt. I've had a hand in a large number of Mormon discussion forums that have sprung up over the years (and somehow managed to have a hand in his FAIR e-list banning in spite of not actually being on the list!). Kevin has rarely been banned from anything.

[_EAllusion]

When I saw Kevin reprimanded by his fellow apologists, it usually was very lightly and usually over the topic of Islam. DCP was more strident.

Take this thread:

http://pacumenispages.yuku.com/topic/11 ... m0y8KhRy2o

This is one of a bajillion threads Kevin started on the subject of Islam and bigotry in the span of 19 seconds. That came across as a bit, er, unbalanced. He needed to cool down and relax. Smac advises, "I like you, but I think you're really losing it. Perhaps you should take a break."

In a similar thread Groove* says,

"Kevin... I have appreciated your posts since coming here, but I think you are off the reservation on this one."

That's the sort of criticism I remember.

And Kevin had a nastier online persona years ago. Naked gainsaying of the truth is not much of an argument.

*He was one of my favorite LDS posters. If anyone has any idea what he's up to and can say, let me know.

[_Dr. Shades]

Say whatever else you want about Kevin, but his posts always make for interesting reading, no matter what side of the aisle you're on.

Plus, there's nothing wrong with a bit of passion, especially when one backs up what one is asserting, as Kevin pretty much always does.

In other news, I think the reason he appears to have been banned multiple times from LDS fora is because his sock-puppets would get sniffed out and banned again on MA&D. He was still under the same, original, single banning, though.

[_Yahoo Bot]

Say whatever else you want about Kevin, but his posts always make for interesting reading, no matter what side of the aisle you're on.

I have never said that his posts aren't entertaining. He certainly brings a level of interest to this board that wouldn't be there without him. Kind of like if Ted Kaczynski were able to post from prison a lot of folks would want to read him.

But his posts demonstrate an unhinged, unfair and somewhat sociopathic personality. Can you trust what he says? No. Has he disabled himself from ever publishing in an peer-reviewed academic forum? Yes. Too much baggage; not enough discipline in his style.

[_harmony]

But his posts demonstrate an unhinged, unfair and somewhat sociopathic personality. Can you trust what he says? No. Has he disabled himself from ever publishing in an peer-reviewed academic forum? Yes. Too much baggage; not enough discipline in his style.

Oh, please. No one can diagnose a sociopathic personality from posts on the internet.

Good grief.