Mormonism and Evolution

[_bcspace]

That they are betrays the fact that these guys are in the minority in church. Like my dad, BCSpace, and many others who ought to know better, they have invented their own private versions of Mormonism, while apparently the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators they sustain just don't get it.

We used to have people testifying in class and from the pulpit of the false science of evolution. Once I spoke up publically in the presence of the three or four who typically did that, it hasn't happened for years. I've shown how I don't go against any doctrinal works of the prophets, at least not the ones that have been presented by you guys so far. lol

There are actually two or three and I've mentioned them before, but I'll leave it up to you to find them again.

It is true that my view is a minority view, but not by much anecdotally.

[_Nightlion]

If you believe in God and the Restoration, bcspace, you cannot allow for any sort of evolution in the least for the origin of any species and certainly not for man. Read your scriptures!

Moses 1:32-35
32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.
33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.
34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.
35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

Still waiting to hear how that precludes evolution. If there is a God, there is nothing to prevent Him from using evolution to create people in His image on every world. Note that I can go with homo sapiens on every world or a looser definition of humanoids on every world.

Exaltation is the continuation of the seeds. Are you saying God needs to evolve life on each planet? HUH? Since God considers us his handiwork that precludes him from utilizing evolution. He says he is our Maker. That precludes him from utilizing evolution. His creations are willful and purposeful and deliberate. No random mutations involved. You are saying that creation was beyond his ability to comprehend. That cannot be God.

[_Jason Bourne]

There is nothing to preclude the current outcome whether it was all the same stock on every world or completely different stock on another world. You cannot account for the motion of every molecule in the universe(s) and as we know, even just footprints in the samd can effect the outcome millions or billions of years later. So it is quite possible for homo sapiens to evolve from different stock and different initial conditions if it's being directed as God would.

It is also quite possible that God directs less than one would think and so the existence of many homo sapiens (or humanoid) inhabited world depends on the fact of creations so numerous as to overcome the more random improbability of homo sapiens arising.

It is also possible, though very unlikely imho, that God is God and did not evolve at all but that this is how He creates.

It is also yet possible, though difficult to argue, that the inhabitants of other worlds don't look like us at all and yet are still somehow in the express image of God in some sense.

So takes your pick or add some more, but yet again there is nothing to preclude God as a homo sapiens and Him having created our mortal bodies via evolution.

But BC if all this is possible, that God directed evolution, and directs evolution on other worlds, to result in a homo sapiens type humanoid in every instance, and if we are implying that this God is powerful enough to so direct it, why couldn't he have just created us in a simpler less sloppy haphazard way?


Also BC have you listened to the podcast? If not will you? I would like you to weigh in on it as you are fairly familiar with this topic.

[_Morley]

How are your beliefs different from Intelligent Design, BC?

Because Intelligent Design is just another term in today's parlance for Young Earth Creationism. Saying "Intelligent Designer" is more accurate and it doesn't force a method of creation onto God. However, my undersatnding is that this term too is rapidly becomming another way of expressing young earth creationism.

I realize you object to the term and don't want to be associated with such riffraff. I don't see how your actual beliefs substantially differ.

[_bcspace]

Exaltation is the continuation of the seeds. Are you saying God needs to evolve life on each planet? HUH? Since God considers us his handiwork that precludes him from utilizing evolution. He says he is our Maker. That precludes him from utilizing evolution. His creations are willful and purposeful and deliberate. No random mutations involved. You are saying that creation was beyond his ability to comprehend. That cannot be God.

Yet again, how does this preclude evolution? According to the Church, we don't know if God scooping up some clay is literally the way it was done. It could just have easily been evolution. Now if you accept the nondoctrinal notion of Adam coming to earth in a spaceship with one of his wives, I can see why one would think evolution is precluded. But besides not being doctrine (never has been) such also implies a young earth which is also against LDS doctrine in the sense that no one can declare the Church has a position on the age of the earth.

[_bcspace]

But BC if all this is possible, that God directed evolution, and directs evolution on other worlds, to result in a homo sapiens type humanoid in every instance, and if we are implying that this God is powerful enough to so direct it, why couldn't he have just created us in a simpler less sloppy haphazard way?

Sloppy relative to whom? Why shouldn't God use naturally occuring processes? And who said it takes a lot of work? Simply walking along the beach could significantly alter the future millions of years hence. One merely has to comprehend all the effects of what one is doing.

Also BC have you listened to the podcast? If not will you? I would like you to weigh in on it as you are fairly familiar with this topic.

At the moment, I don't have the time. I listened for 20 minutes of mostly introductions but if you want to point something out, feel free to designate the time in the cast I should start at. Initial descriptions seemed to indicate that my own hypothesis covers the bases much better.

[_Jason Bourne]

Sloppy relative to whom? Why shouldn't God use naturally occuring processes? And who said it takes a lot of work? Simply walking along the beach could significantly alter the future millions of years hence. One merely has to comprehend all the effects of what one is doing.

Sloppy relative to science. Science says it is a sloppy random process. To get to us, humans, was sloppy and totally random. Under other conditions we may not look like what we are at all. Sloppy as noted here because the results, humans, are less than best in our design and function. As Robin Williams said in that movie where he is running for president "Anyone who believes in intelligent design needs to ask who would put a waste management facility next to a playground." Our upright design causes us all sorts of pain and problems. Our knees would be better to pivot backwards. Evolution on another planet would likely not result in humans. So you said if God exists he could tweak and control it to the point of getting it to humans which seemingly in LDS doctrine is the pinnacle of God's creation because God is a glorified human.

So you really avoided the point. If evolution is indeed random, and it is, and you think God has power to control it to the point of getting humans how He wants them, is he not powerful enough to just create us without all the long messy process? Seems like a bassackwards way of getting to what he wants.

Or is God bound by the physical laws and stuck with evolution. But He can bake the cake by adding the right ingredients and such. But that is it. His power does not extend beyond that?

Also BC have you listened to the podcast? If not will you? I would like you to weigh in on it as you are fairly familiar with this topic.

At the moment, I don't have the time. I listened for 20 minutes of mostly introductions but if you want to point something out, feel free to designate the time in the cast I should start at. Initial descriptions seemed to indicate that my own hypothesis covers the bases much better.

Start maybe half way in to the end.

As for your hypothesis it certainly tried to force a literal Adam into things with evolution. But LDS canon and manuals are more literal and disagree. The Church has done nothing more than dodge and say we don't know either way. But there has to be a literal Adam. At least you try to find a way. The fellows on the podcast simple ignore it.

[_Buffalo]

bcspace's proposition is not compatible with evolution, which relies on random mutation and undirected environmental conditions. And it's not compatible with LDS Doctrine, which says there was no death before the fall and says that humans were specially created in the garden of eden.

It's a slipshod attempt to harmonize two incompatible ideas. Unfortunately, his take contradicts both, and so is not a harmonization.

[_Nightlion]

Exaltation is the continuation of the seeds. Are you saying God needs to evolve life on each planet? HUH? Since God considers us his handiwork that precludes him from utilizing evolution. He says he is our Maker. That precludes him from utilizing evolution. His creations are willful and purposeful and deliberate. No random mutations involved. You are saying that creation was beyond his ability to comprehend. That cannot be God.

Yet again, how does this preclude evolution? According to the Church, we don't know if God scooping up some clay is literally the way it was done. It could just have easily been evolution. Now if you accept the nondoctrinal notion of Adam coming to earth in a spaceship with one of his wives, I can see why one would think evolution is precluded. But besides not being doctrine (never has been) such also implies a young earth which is also against LDS doctrine in the sense that no one can declare the Church has a position on the age of the earth.

I resent your hostility, bcspace, you show everyone the respect of leaving their name in their quotes but me. It is a deliberate slight. And it makes it a bother to locate a reply. I fix it every time and have forever. You never took the hint and that make it all the more intentional.

Even if you had ever bothered to read my theological opus magnus, New Mormon Theology, which I have cited several times on this board, I have to doubt you could retain much of it because of you prejudice. Over thirty years ago I tackled these issues quite successfully. The Gentile LDS would not hear of it and began to prowl around in my life for when best to strike and did.

Hypocrites who pretend to revelation and have none cannot be taught anything new as that would uncover their spiritual trickery and defeat their pride. Nonetheless I did years ago resolve the dilemma of the age of the earth vs Adam being placed in the Garden of Eden vs him being made of clay vs the Garden being the first life on the planet vs the geological fossil record.

To sum it up nicely; Adam was our spirit body father as Brigham Young taught. Brigham was incorrect about Adam being the father of Jesus and incorrect that Adam was God. The Gentiles repudiated Zion and the gifts and powers of the gospel of Jesus Christ and changed the ordinances and broke the everlasting covenant to enshrine exaltation as their core value.

Exaltation is good doctrine and should be understood with knowledge and not by way of unguided guessing that opens the door to the natural man's ego centric wanderlust of theological fantasy. According to the chronology of creation scripture the earth was made, THEN, Adam and Eve were commanded to multiply and replenish and the record says that they FINISHED all the hosts thereof. Further along in the chronology we understand that all these things were ONLY yet created in heaven and nothing was upon the earth.

Adam and Eve who were created in the image and likeness of God, (resurrected unto exaltation) were ALREADY MARRIED and were given a world. And were commanded to multiply which is the power of the continuation of the seeds which is what all exalted couples are given to do. NO POSSIBLE ARGUMENT from LDS. During the billions of years it took Adam and Eve to finish and nurture over 20,000,000,000 spirit children the earth underwent its epoch eras where all the resources for our day and age were prepared and then an extinction event ended that preparation. Age of the earth is no problem for LDS scripture when its chronology is rightly allowed.

HOW do you place the exalted man Adam and his wife, Eve, in the Garden such that they cannot simply hie to Kolob or twinkle over to visit their kids on other worlds of the exalted ones? YOU tether them to this world by placing their exalted resurrected selves into clay tabernacles that wipe out memory and enshrouds them in coarse elements that effectively takes away their SUPER powers. As Joseph Smith said, we are spirit from age to age. Meaning that after we are resurrected unto glory that being is spirit. And so God placed that spirit into the clay that would tether Adam and Eve to the physical earth in the Garden of Eden. All flora and fauna alike were placed here, yeah and that means trucked here in space freighters that docked here and unloaded. Which I understand is a most lucrative enterprise in the eternities, just kidding. And no kidding, that flora and fauna was in many cases the same as what can be found in the pre-extinction fossil record. Duh!

Now, bc, I already hear you saying this is NOT doctrine. OH! Whatever the scripture say IS doctrine in the LDS Church. I defy you to show that the scripture fail to say exactly as I say that they say. No Mormon has taken up that gauntlet in over thirty years, cause their yella, that's right, I am calling you yella! And I am striving to keep my audience entertained enough to plow through my post.

[_Franktalk]

.....read my theological opus magnus, New Mormon Theology, which I have cited several times on this board, .....

Where can I find it, I would like to read it.

Frank