The Kingdom of Jesus

[_Runtu]

Now you're starting to get the born again experience.

In all seriousness, do you think being born again means someone will no longer have any desire to sin?

[_LDSToronto]

That's a good point, Hoops. I was baptized when I was 21; many called it a 'born again' experience. I think my desire not to sin lasted until I was back in dry clothing. Not so sure that being 'born again' has much effect.

H.

[_Hoops]

Now you're starting to get the born again experience.

In all seriousness, do you think being born again means someone will no longer have any desire to sin?

In all seriousness, of course not. Not only is the desire just as strong, but one sees sin's manifestations even more profoundly.

[_Hoops]

That's a good point, Hoops. I was baptized when I was 21; many called it a 'born again' experience. I think my desire not to sin lasted until I was back in dry clothing. Not so sure that being 'born again' has much effect.

H.

My desire to sin is just as strong as ever. In some ways, for some things, stronger

[_Runtu]

In all seriousness, of course not. Not only is the desire just as strong, but one sees sin's manifestations even more profoundly.

Then I guess I'm not understanding your response to LDST.

[_Hoops]

From observation it appears that humans are complicated and messy. You use the term evil, I do not. When you say evil I am understanding that you mean apart from God...?Or is that what sin means?

That is sin.

Is evil describing actions or a state of being? I need clarification.

Could be both. Religously, I try and avoid "evil" because it's meaning has little to do with much.

I believe that the divine resides within us, so we disagree on this and I am not sure how to get around that. A person cannot be separate from that which is within them.

I agree. We have the spark of divine within us. I am talking about be seperated from the Person God.

If the divine is rejected, as there is no proof of it, then it is a moot point. Can't be separated from something that doesn't exist.

Sorry, you don't get to change the rules in the 3rd quarter. Your OP presupposes the Divine.

People are people. They do stuff that harms others, they do stuff that helps others, they do stuff that is neutral in regards to others. There are people who go through life never having broken a law or done harm to another. I would say that makes them "sinless" in the realistic sense of the word.

Is that what sin is? Breaking the law? I would completely deny this. Something can be legal yet not moral.

A baby is "sinless" in my mind.

We wouldhave to come to some other conclusions to agree with this.

A person in a coma is "sinless."

How about before he was in a coma?

A law-abiding citizen is as good as sinless.

Again, laws are the barometer? This is interesting to me. You rail against the Old Testament God on the one hand - The Law Giver -

Yes. It is necessary to know how it is done. People can say anything they want about how things are going to change.

You've made the citations yourself. The Bible has given us a lothere. You want to have the whole program in advance for some reason? Nonetheless, the Bible clearly tells us that God will administer justly. I'm sure you can imagine how a Just God would treat mentally challenged person.

It is quite another thing to actually be able to explain how something will occur. It's like a presidential candidate who makes a bunch of promises but never mentions how they will accomplish any of it.

Sorry, no, it's nothing like that.

Plus, if it is possible to improve living conditions shouldn't this be pursued by humanity?

Of course.

Yet, people who have been born again will go to war and murder other people who have been born again if their nation tells them to.

Shoot! They'll do worse than that!

There are people who have been born again who still find themselves breaking the law. So, being born again has not changed human behavior. Sure, they are united with god, but that hasn't caused them to "behave themselves," which was your words.

It sure hasn't. And that was never my point

Now, if behavior doesn't matter and the Kingdom of Jesus will actually be identical to society today only with everyone "united" with Christ that would be altogether different than the impression I was given from the scriptures.

Doesn't matter for what? And who said anything about being exactly identical.

I dunno. I'm confused as to whether you believe being born again will change behavior or just establish a relationship with Christ.

It establishes relationship first. Behavior often follows

I'm not sure I follow this answer from the question posed. Are you saying that nothing will be different other than everyone will get some one on one time with Jesus? Are you saying that Jesus' administration actually will not cause a change in behavior?

If you are talking about the literal thousand year reign of Christ. We've already shown that creation will change. That's what creation is waiting for. So will the administration cause the change? Or will the ushering in of the administration, the event of the second coming, cause the change in creation. It would see it's the second come event that does this, not the administration.

Some people break the law, some people don't. I don't break the law. Misbehaving is breaking the law.

Is it limited to that?

I noticed that in your last sentence you say "...The Kingdom of God has arrived." Are you of the opinion that the Second Coming and establishment of the KoG is a personal event, a literal event that will involve the whole world, or both?

I think the Bible is clearly telling us that it will be a literal thousand year reign of Christ. It's not a personal event. The Kingdom of God is NOT the church. It will involve all of creation.

I guess if one kills everyone they don't agree with they could establish relationships with those whom they allowed to live.

Yeah, they could. It would seem you are not willing to say that some wars are justified. I think they are, sometimes. And because of that, going to war is not just to kill people who we disagree with. Sometimes it is to establsh justice. That's a worthy, noble thing. I wouldn't much care for a world where safety Trump's justice.

You have pointed out the temporary state of peace that certain nations currently enjoy. I do not believe that it can be shown that war lead to the peace.

Sure it can. You might disagree, but it can.

The wars never solved the actual problems.

Well, they solved the biggest threat to peace. That nation wants to destroy me to take our land. I will remove their ability to believe that is possible.

The only thing that has ever lead to actual peace is the establishment of law over the groups in conflict.

I don't follow.

I think that a true and living god could come up with a better way to establish peace than by murdering all the opposition. But, I've already mentioned that before.

Yes, you mention it a lot. You don't bother telling us how you would to that, you stance is simply "I don't like how He does it, so I don't believe."

Now, if Jesus is not actually going to kill people when he comes I would have a lot less problems with this theology. If he uses law to establish peace among humanity then he would probably get my vote.

When has establishing laws ever, every resulted in peace?

Oh wait, I forgot...no voting since it is an absolute monarchy.

Well, true, it is an absolute Monarchy, but I"m not sure that means you won't vote on some things. You'll remember that the 12 apostles will also be administrators in the government.