Buffalo wrote:Joseph's sexual misbehavior started early on. You can't separate the restoration from Joseph Smith's sexual predation and swindling operations. They start at the same time.
Beyond the reality you can't really prove these sexual events, other than from manipulated anti-LDS sources, you also CAN in fact separate them. You are forcing a narrative to push your agenda.
JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
son of Ishmael wrote:Why in the world would Joseph Smith send Orson Hyde on a mission and then married his wife if he didn't want to have sex with her?
You have to understand that the temple ceremonies were a new concept (the temple wasn't even completed) and everyone from the prophet on down were confused. You can find men sealed to men, women sealed to women and it is all one big mess. There was also this dynastic marriage concept going on and the secret practice of polygamy.
Buffalo and company like to read into it perverse ideas like infidelity and adultery. There is no evidence of that what-so-ever. And there certainly isn't any proof of Joseph Smith having sex with perviously married women. I do know that he did have sex with young women that were only married to him and that is what you'd expect in polygamy. Again, Buffalo and company like to state that it was with all the wives or takes statements from these polygamist wives that they had been with the prophet and apply it to the dynastic marriges which were more about salvation and not about sex.
The only married wife who made a statement about it was Sylvia to her daughter Josephine that she was Joseph Smith's daughter. I take that to mean in the eternities since she isn't his biological daughter. Buffalo and company state definitively that Sylvia had sex with Joseph Smith because of this statement which is a complete mischaracterization and clearly not biologically true.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Josh, while I understand that you disagree about the facts at hand, are you beginning to understand why some people find certain aspects of Mormon polygamy somewhat shocking?
just me wrote:You seemed to indicate there were women who claimed to have sexual relations with Smith who had not had some type of "marriage" with him while he was living. I want to know the names and where I can find these testimonies. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.
No, there are statements from women that state definitively that they were carried away in the spirit to be with Joseph Smith. I'll have to dig out the sources since it has been a while since I read them. But, there are statements to this effect that were made after the prophet was dead. I think one the statements was made in the 1920's too.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
just me wrote:You seemed to indicate there were women who claimed to have sexual relations with Smith who had not had some type of "marriage" with him while he was living. I want to know the names and where I can find these testimonies. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.
No, there are statements from women that state definitively that they were carried away in the spirit to be with Joseph Smith. I'll have to dig out the sources since it has been a while since I read them. But, there are statements to this effect that were made after the prophet was dead. I think one the statements was made in the 1920's too.
Oh yeah, it totally sounds like they are saying he came back to life. Can't wait to see these stories.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
jskains wrote:[In response to Buffalo claiming, "There is quite good evidence that Smith slept with all of his wives, including those already married."]
You have photos we didn't know exist?
JMS
The prima facie evidences is that they were his wives. Absent strong evidence to the contrary, this is strong prima facie evidence that he shagged each and every one rotten.
Exactly. The ridiculousness of many apologists is well-illustrated by their insistence that nothing short of photographs would constitute evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual congress with his wives.
It’s relatively easy to agree that only Homo sapiens can speak about things that don’t really exist, and believe six impossible things before breakfast. You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
son of Ishmael wrote:Why in the world would Joseph Smith send Orson Hyde on a mission and then married his wife if he didn't want to have sex with her?
You have to understand that the temple ceremonies were a new concept (the temple wasn't even completed) and everyone from the prophet on down were confused. You can find men sealed to men, women sealed to women and it is all one big mess. There was also this dynastic marriage concept going on and the secret practice of polygamy.
Buffalo and company like to read into it perverse ideas like infidelity and adultery. There is no evidence of that what-so-ever. And there certainly isn't any proof of Joseph Smith having sex with perviously married women. I do know that he did have sex with young women that were only married to him and that is what you'd expect in polygamy. Again, Buffalo and company like to state that it was with all the wives or takes statements from these polygamist wives that they had been with the prophet and apply it to the dynastic marriges which were more about salvation and not about sex.
The only married wife who made a statement about it was Sylvia to her daughter Josephine that she was Joseph Smith's daughter. I take that to mean in the eternities since she isn't his biological daughter. Buffalo and company state definitively that Sylvia had sex with Joseph Smith because of this statement which is a complete mischaracterization and clearly not biologically true.
You didn't answer the question. Orson Hyde wanted to KILL himself over the ordeal. You honestly think sex wasn't involved? Why was it such a huge mess then?
Why are you so adamant that Smith didn't have any sex with any previously married women? Brigham Young did. Why is it okay for Briggy but not for Joseph?
As a matter of fact, another tradition was that of passing along wives to new leaders after the death of their husband.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
Analytics wrote:Exactly. The ridiculousness of many apologists is well-illustrated by their insistence that nothing short of photographs would constitute evidence that Joseph Smith had sexual congress with his wives.
The ridiculousness is the arrogance that anti-Mormons have, that they know everything, and that no other possibility exists.
Your minds are more closed than any other I know.
JMS
Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition from Mediocre Minds - Albert Einstein
just me wrote:Why are you so adamant that Smith didn't have any sex with any previously married women? Brigham Young did. Why is it okay for Briggy but not for Joseph?
Because these women were still living with their husbands. Basically, the accusation is bigamy. Adultery isn't actually accurate since Joseph Smith was married to these women. But, essentially that is what is claimed because Joseph Smith married these women so he could piously commit adultery and cover it up. It's a false, unproven accusation and complete garbage.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
just me wrote:Why are you so adamant that Smith didn't have any sex with any previously married women? Brigham Young did. Why is it okay for Briggy but not for Joseph?
Because these women were still living with their husbands. Basically, the accusation is bigamy. Adultery isn't actually accurate since Joseph Smith was married to these women. But, essentially that is what is claimed because Joseph Smith married these women so he could piously commit adultery and cover it up. It's a false, unproven accusation and complete garbage.
The D&C forbids a man to take a non-virgin to wife or she shall be destroyed. So, uh, he didn't follow those rules...nor did Brigham. They broke God's rules regarding poly.
Joseph lied his farking pants off on the whole affair, too. If it was all so innocent why become a liar...a bearer of false witness?
Oh, and it was against the laws outlined and accepted by the saints that was currently in the D&C. D&C 132 did not become public until the mid-1850's. SO all that time they were breaking the laws of the church.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 15, 2012 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
~Those who benefit from the status quo always attribute inequities to the choices of the underdog.~Ann Crittenden ~The Goddess is not separate from the world-She is the world and all things in it.~
