Facsimile 3

[_Tobin]

On the contrary, the Church teaches that the Book of Mormon narrative was literally on the plates Smith claimed to have translates, just as the Book of Abraham narrative was literally written on the Egyptian papyri in his possession.

Yep, we have gold plates and papyrus. Joseph Smith claimed to translate from both sources by the gift and power of God. Note also in the Explanations of Facsimile No. 2 he says:

"The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time."

Now I ask, by what "RIGHT" did Joseph Smith have to translate the Facsimile as he did the Book of Mormon?

Tobin! By what "RIGHT"?

Paul O

Joseph Smith didn't translate the papyri. They are Egyptian and useless to the Church. The Lord showed him the original writings of Abraham. Those are useful.

[_zeezrom]

It's pretty amazing. I'm sure many of my friends and family would resort to your methods as well, tobin. I suppose it can work.

At least with the Book of Mormon, any ancient writings that might be associated with the book are gone. We can claim the evidence for or against is missing. But the Book of Abraham calls believers to step it up a notch. They must step it up to: despite reasonable evidence pointing to fraudulent work, it is still true.

I'm glad you found a way, my Kung Fu master. I respect your preserverance. I just hope you don't make any financial decisions with that approach. :)

[_Equality]

The scenario for which Tobin argues in favor faces some significant logical challenges. If Joseph Smith claimed to be translating by the gift and power of God, but he got the translation completely wrong (which Tobin acknowledges with respect to the representations on Facsimile 3), then there are really only three possibilities:
(1) Joseph Smith did not translate by the gift and power of God (he lied about being able to do so);
(2) Joseph Smith enjoyed the gift and power of God, but God allowed him to get the translations wrong and never bothered to correct him or any of the Mormon prophets over the last, oh, 180 years, which means God is a dishonest prick and a trickster;
(3) There is no God.

Numbers 1 and 3 are not mutually exclusive propositions.

Or (4) Joseph Smith revealed the original writings of Abraham and the papyri were merely the impetus for this revelation.

That doesn't work to explain why God would reveal the Abraham stuff and still let Joseph Smith think that he was inspired with his translation of Facsimile 3 that he got completely wrong. You haven't adequately dealt with possibility number 2 above. God's silence in the face of Joseph Smith's (and subsequent prophets') utter failure with respect to Facsimile 3 is the equivalent of consent; therefore, God is fundamentally dishonest if we accept your premise. Also, a colossal prick.

[_Equality]

Not really. God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him him to translate it. You have to bear in mind, Joseph Smith wasn't perfect and just as human as the rest of us.

Joseph Smith said that's exactly what God did. Your word against his, Tobin. You are calling Joseph Smith a liar, which is fine with me, but at least be consistent and acknowledge that Joseph Smith lied about a great any things. And Joseph Smith's imperfections do not excuse God. If God called Joseph Smith as prophet and inspired him with respect to the text of the Book of Abraham, God had a moral responsibility to correct any errors that Joseph Smith made on his own (as you claim--I don't think Joseph Smith or any Mormon prophet since ever said Joseph Smith introduced errors of his own into the Book of Abraham facsimiles; that's an apologetic of fairly recent vintage).

[_zeezrom]

Equality,

A colossal prick in light of all the other mean things God has supposedly done? To a believing Mormon, Book of Abraham trickery by God is very small in comparison to other "tests" He gives is, no?

[_Shulem]

God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him him to translate it. You have to bear in mind, Joseph Smith wasn't perfect and just as human as the rest of us.

You really aren't familiar with what Joseph Smith said regarding the papyrus or how they fell into his hands by the Almighty providence of God. You just don't know the story, Tobin. You should just shut up and do some research -- you're ignorant and make a fool out of yourself because you don't know Mormon history.

William Phelps wrote:

"The last of June four Egyptian mummies were brought here; there were two papyrus rolls, besides some other ancient Egyptian writings with them. As no one could translate these writings, they were presented to President Smith. He soon knew what they were and said they, the 'rolls of papyrus,' contained the sacred record kept of Joseph in Pharaoh’s Court in Egypt, and the teachings of Father Abraham. God has so ordered it that these mummies and writings have been brought in the Church, and the sacred writing I have just locked up in Brother Joseph’s house"

Paul O

[_Shulem]

So? There is no reason to think the Egyptians would have any interest in preserving a story about Abraham and his myths. They were pagans and had no motive to do so. They would write about their stories and myths.

That's what you say but the prophet Joseph Smith and his right hand man Oliver Cowdery said otherwise using their authority and office of the priesthood. But I'm not going to provide those quotes. You remain ignorant.

There are numerous witnesses who wrote about how Joseph Smith said a record of Abraham was preserved by the Egyptians. You Tobin, are not in step with Joseph Smith. I think you're an apostate and a liar. You ain't fooling me.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

Or (4) Joseph Smith revealed the original writings of Abraham and the papyri were merely the impetus for this revelation.

That doesn't work to explain why God would reveal the Abraham stuff and still let Joseph Smith think that he was inspired with his translation of Facsimile 3 that he got completely wrong. You haven't adequately dealt with possibility number 2 above. God's silence in the face of Joseph Smith's (and subsequent prophets') utter failure with respect to Facsimile 3 is the equivalent of consent; therefore, God is fundamentally dishonest if we accept your premise. Also, a colossal prick.

The Facsimiles were part of the Egyptian papyri. They have nothing to do with the Book of Abraham. As I've already stated, the original writings and depictions made by Abraham do not exist and were lost long ago.

[_Shulem]

Joseph Smith didn't translate the papyri. They are Egyptian and useless to the Church. The Lord showed him the original writings of Abraham. Those are useful.

Joseph Smith said otherwise, Tobin. Who the hell are you to counter what Joseph Smith said? You're just an apostate playing some kind of sick game. The President of the Mormon church Trump's you.

I have plenty of citations to overturn everything you say -- straight from Joseph Smith and his apostles. You don't know Mormon history and the little game you're playing is silly.

Go home, boy.

Paul O

[_Tobin]

Not really. God didn't hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and ask him him to translate it. You have to bear in mind, Joseph Smith wasn't perfect and just as human as the rest of us.

Joseph Smith said that's exactly what God did. Your word against his, Tobin. You are calling Joseph Smith a liar, which is fine with me, but at least be consistent and acknowledge that Joseph Smith lied about a great any things. And Joseph Smith's imperfections do not excuse God. If God called Joseph Smith as prophet and inspired him with respect to the text of the Book of Abraham, God had a moral responsibility to correct any errors that Joseph Smith made on his own (as you claim--I don't think Joseph Smith or any Mormon prophet since ever said Joseph Smith introduced errors of his own into the Book of Abraham facsimiles; that's an apologetic of fairly recent vintage).

Despite your disingenuous assertions, that is NOT what happened. God did not appear and hand the papyri to Joseph Smith and command him to translate them.