Kids who die before age 8 DON'T automatically go to the C.K.

[_SteelHead]

Details, details, details.

;)

[_Yoda]

Liz, prophets have extolled the virtues of polygamy, yet you refuse to buy in. How come it matters what prophets have said in this instance?

The argument is about what is, and is not LDS doctrine. I have never argued that polygamy is not LDS doctrine.

I respect Tobin's, and anyone's right to disagree with the doctrine. That is not what Tobin is doing. He is stating that a well established doctrine is, in fact, not doctrine at all, when we have provided multiple sources that it is.

[_Themis]

When LDS teachings are incorrect, is it not better to advocate the correct view?!?

No one is suggesting you shouldn't. How many times have people had to correct you on what beastie is talking about yet you still can't figure it out. Her OP was about what the church teaches. It was directed towards kevinsim and brings up some problems he may not want to think about.

I know you are interested in the view that there will be a larger number of men in the CK than women. But if it is based on a false premise, I don't see anything useful about exploring what it implies. If you can find Mormons that will engage you in that view, then have fun with that.

that's why your comments had to be removed from her thread since she was trying to engage Mormons who believe what the church teaches about children who die before the age of accountability. Not what you believe.

I, myself, find it more interesting and useful to correct these types of views with reasonable rational arguments based on citations from the scriptures and the prophets.

No one is stopping you from starting your own thread then. The problem though would be you haven't cited anything from the LDS church that supports your position and you have been given many citations including Canonized ones that deal directly with the question. In the end this is what the church teaches and you have a different view. Nothing wrong with that.

[_Tobin]

Liz, prophets have extolled the virtues of polygamy, yet you refuse to buy in. How come it matters what prophets have said in this instance?

The argument is about what is, and is not LDS doctrine. I have never argued that polygamy is not LDS doctrine.

I respect Tobin's, and anyone's right to disagree with the doctrine. That is not what Tobin is doing. He is stating that a well established doctrine is, in fact, not doctrine at all, when we have provided multiple sources that it is.

And I have responded in each of those instances about why those views (or interpretations of scripture) are incorrect. I have also cited scriptures and prophets stating quite clearly that everyone will be tested and tried by the Lord without exception before they can attain exaltation. There are a number of points I have brought up that highlight the problem with this view that children are automatically exalted into the CK. I have yet to see any response to a single one of them.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Tobin defending his particular brand of Mormonism:



- VRDRC

[_Jason Bourne]

This whole thing is a fictitious crock to start with. Just because you check out of this life early (say at the fetus stage), does not mean you go to the CK, are exalted, pass Go and collect $200, and all that non-sense. You will be tested and tried like everyone else in the next life. There are no automatic passes. The purpose of this stage in our existence is merely to obtain a mortal body. That's it. Becoming a Celestial Being is an entirely different matter.

Well I don't know either way but your position is heritical based on LDS official teachings. Course you have a lot of those heritcal ideas that contradict official teachings. That is ok. So do I. Difference is I know mine are but it seems you think yours are not.

[_Themis]

And I have responded in each of those instances about why those views (or interpretations of scripture) are incorrect. I have also cited scriptures and prophets stating quite clearly that everyone will be tested and tried by the Lord without exception before they can attain exaltation.

Most of what you quoted wasn't even talking about everyone. Your D&C quote is about a select group of people. You have been shown D&C 137:10 which is a claim from Joseph "And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven". Notice it says ALL. This is a direct as you can get and all statements from the church and it's leaders have supported this view, even if you think it is incorrect. It doesn't say those children will not have tests or ordeals to go through, but clearly they are guaranteed the celestial kingdom according to LDS doctrine and Joseph Smith.

There are a number of points I have brought up that highlight the problem with this view that children are automatically exalted into the CK. I have yet to see any response to a single one of them.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting their are not plot holes with the Doctrines that Joseph Smith was coming up with, or that that the church teaches. This is quite common for man-made religions, but it is still very clear what Joseph taught about it and what the church today teaches about it.

[_Darth J]

I have also cited scriptures and prophets stating quite clearly that everyone will be tested and tried by the Lord without exception before they can attain exaltation.

While this debate over whether the TARDIS or Doc Brown's DeLorean is a better time machine has been fascinating, I note that Tobin is relying on faulty logic to explain why his personal mythology is better than official LDS mythology. Tobin does not claim that the truth about what happens to infants after they die was revealed to him by this deity whom he understands better than Joseph Smith or the leaders of the church to which Tobin belongs. Tobin instead relies on what he believes to be valid reasoning. But it is not. Tobin is depending on a fallacious argument from silence, as well as taking statements out of context. So I am commenting not because I am particularly concerned about the eschatology being asserted, but to point out the specious reasoning on which Tobin's assertions are based.

For example, Tobin cherry picks D&C 101:4-5 and induces from the statement about "they must needs be chastened and tried like Abraham" to induce that every single person who exists has to be tried like Abraham, and therefore babies have to be tried like Abraham, presumably in some sort of Mormon purgatory. But Tobin is taking these verses out of context. Who are the "they" who must be tried like Abraham? Well, it turns out that "they" does not refer to the totality of the human race, but to some specific cohorts of Joseph Smith. Let's look at Tobin's cherry-picked verses in context:

D&C 101

1 Verily I say unto you, concerning your brethren who have been afflicted, and persecuted, and cast out from the land of their inheritance—

2 I, the Lord, have suffered the affliction to come upon them, wherewith they have been afflicted, in consequence of their transgressions;

3 Yet I will own them, and they shall be amine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels.

4 Therefore, they must needs be chastened and tried, even as Abraham, who was commanded to offer up his only son.

5 For all those who will not endure chastening, but deny me, cannot be sanctified.

The underlined are the "they" to which verse 4 is referring. "They" who must be tried as Abraham are the Mormons who were forced out of various parts of Missouri in 1833. Verse 4 is not talking about a condition precedent to salvation applicable to everyone who has ever existed.

Then Tobin quotes one statement by Joseph Smith about people being tried in mortal life, but ignores that this is the same Joseph Smith who gave us D&C 137:10.

Then Tobin quotes Brigham Young. But in that statement, Brigham Young was not talking about children who die before the age of accountability. Here is what Brigham Young did say about that issue:

Brigham Young, JOD 10:367

But, it is consoling to think, that when our children are taken from the earth in their infancy, they are safe, for they are redeemed, and of such is the Kingdom of heaven: they have the promise of a glorious resurrection, to share in glory with those, who are brought forth, to enjoy the blessings of the sanctified. This is a matter of rejoicing to us; and the reflection ought to comfort the mourners, on the present occasion. It gives me no less joy to think, that the inhabitants of the earth, will not have to suffer and endure, the wrath of an angry God to all eternity. It gives me exceedingly great joy to understand, that every child that has been taken from this mortality to the spiritual world, from the day that mother Eve bore her first child to this time, is an heir to the celestial Kingdom and glory of God;

Tobin also quotes George Q. Cannon, when Cannon was speaking in general terms, and not about babies who die. If you look at pages 368-369 from the above link to the Journal of Discourses, you will find that George Q. Cannon was the follow-up speaker to Brigham Young at the funeral for J.S. Kimball (who was a child). The above quote by Brigham Young is from his sermon at that funeral. Here is how George Q. Cannon began his talk following Brigham Young's:

I do not know that I can add anything that will be any more consolatory to the mourners, than what has already been spoken. While listening to brother Brigham's remarks there were some reflections that passed through my mind, which to me were consolatory and edifying.

You may notice that Cannon did not say, "Nuh-uh! Children have to be tried and tested like Abraham! They're not automatically going to the CK!" Odd that he ratified what Brigham Young had said if it were contrary to George Q. Cannon's belief.

And John Taylor, on whom Tobin also relies, was likewise not talking about children who die before the age of accountability in the statement Tobin cites. Here is what John Taylor said about children who die before the age of accountability:

“Chapter 6: The Power of the Atonement for Us Personally,” Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor, 49

The Redeemer Himself, when tabernacling in the flesh, said to His disciples … , “Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.” [Luke 18:16–17.] And after His crucifixion and resurrection He repeated this same admonition to His Nephite disciples: “And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.” [3 Nephi 11:38.]

Without Adam’s transgression those children could not have existed; through the atonement they are placed in a state of salvation without any act of their own. These would embrace, according to the opinion of statisticians, more than one-half of the human family, who can attribute their salvation only to the mediation and atonement of the Savior. Thus, as stated elsewhere, in some mysterious, incomprehensible way, Jesus assumed the responsibility which naturally would have devolved upon Adam; but which could only be accomplished through the mediation of Himself, and by taking upon Himself their sorrows, assuming their responsibilities, and bearing their transgressions or sins.

In a manner to us incomprehensible and inexplicable, he bore the weight of the sins of the whole world; not only of Adam, but of his posterity; and in doing that, opened the kingdom of heaven, not only to all believers and all who obeyed the law of God, but to more than one-half of the human family who die before they come to years of maturity, as well as to the heathen, who, having died without law, will, through His mediation, be resurrected without law, and be judged without law, and thus participate, according to their capacity, works and worth, in the blessings of His atonement

Anyway, Tobin, I believe you were saying something about "stop pretending you understand a thing about Mormonism and spouting your non-sense."

[_Darth J]

Oh, and Tobin,

In case my point about George Q. Cannon was not clear enough, here's something else he wrote:

George Q. Cannon: The Life of Joseph Smith, the Prophet

Many other things did the Prophet see and hear. He beheld that all children who died before reaching years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of our God. A holy comfort this, which takes the place of all the black threats concerning infantile damnation.

Now what was it you were saying? "Stop pretending you understand a thing about Mormonism and spouting your non-sense"?

[_LDSToronto]

Liz, prophets have extolled the virtues of polygamy, yet you refuse to buy in. How come it matters what prophets have said in this instance?

The argument is about what is, and is not LDS doctrine. I have never argued that polygamy is not LDS doctrine.

I respect Tobin's, and anyone's right to disagree with the doctrine. That is not what Tobin is doing. He is stating that a well established doctrine is, in fact, not doctrine at all, when we have provided multiple sources that it is.

Thanks for clarifying.

H.