Tobin wrote:God is inviting you to suspend your disbelief and seek him and speak with him. Unless and until you are willing to do so, you are damned (literally stopped). This will be true in this life and the next. Even when you die, you will remain as you are - unable to believe or follow God until you give up your preconceptions, humble yourself, repent (literally change) and believe in and follow God. Now, you may view the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon as a ridiculous hoax. That is your right, but those of us that have spoken with God value them and all of God's "revealed" words.
I have asked God. It's rather presumptuous of you to say I haven't or that I'm not willing to follow God. Speak for yourself, not me.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Bob Loblaw wrote: So, what do you make of the anachronisms in the text? Did God intentionally reveal anachronistic scripture that references 19th-century documents, Josephus, and the KJV, not to mention Joseph's Hebrew lessons?
No amount of objections, logic, historical facts, contradictions, anachronisms, bad astronomy, bad grammar, changes to the original text, plagiarisms, can overcome the confirmation of the spirit. You just can't teach stupid, it has to be confirmed by the spirit.
Perhaps if the wonderful Super Space Alien Star Trek God has some face time with us, he will confirm to us both that Joseph Smith was an idiotic nincompoop who made things up and did not know what he was doing, and also that Joseph Smith was a true prophet.
Of course, then we'll have to wonder why, if Joseph Smith had no idea what was really going on, why we should trust that Tobin does know what's really going on. Or how it is that all of the falsifiable parts of Joseph Smith's scriptures are indeed false, but we should be confident that the ephemeral metaphysics are completely reliable, even though Mormonism's ephemeral metaphysical claims are dependent on the reality of the falsifiable claims. But I'm sure Super Space Alien Star Trek God will sort that out for us, too.
Darth J wrote:Perhaps if the wonderful Super Space Alien Star Trek God has some face time with us, he will confirm to us both that Joseph Smith was an idiotic nincompoop who made things up and did not know what he was doing, and also that Joseph Smith was a true prophet.
Of course, then we'll have to wonder why, if Joseph Smith had no idea what was really going on, why we should trust that Tobin does know what's really going on. Or how it is that all of the falsifiable parts of Joseph Smith's scriptures are indeed false, but we should be confident that the ephemeral metaphysics are completely reliable, even though Mormonism's ephemeral metaphysical claims are dependent on the reality of the falsifiable claims. But I'm sure Super Space Alien Star Trek God will sort that out for us, too.
This. It's not a matter of suspending disbelief but rather of willfully ignoring reason and evidence. Not the same thing. I can suspend disbelief that Wonka candies are made by Oompa-Loompas, but that would involve ignoring the evidence that Wonka is just a subsidiary of Nestle.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Joseph Smith bought some Egyptian mummies and papyrus for a boatload of money. Joseph said that he could read the hieroglyphics and that the scrolls were the records of Abraham and Joseph. Joseph spent a lot of time over a number of years translating the papyrus into what we now know as the Book of Abraham. Joseph helpfully provided explanations for specific elements on the papyrus, which are reproduced as fascimiles in the canon. The papyrus has been shown to be completely unrelated to Abraham but is instead a common funerary text. The explanations of the facsimiles are nonsensical, and much of the damaged papyrus has been incorrectly "restored" in a way that reflects 19th-century prejudices and beliefs. The text also has nothing to do with a real history of Abraham but is cobbled together from Josephus, Thomas Dick, and the English KJV Bible. Nevertheless, God inspired Joseph to mistakenly translate something he really couldn't translate and write a "revealed" text that isn't really a legitimate account of Abraham.
God must really like screwing with us. Seems kind of cruel to make something look so ridiculous and obviously fake and then tell us we have to pray about it to get a witness that it is, despite all evidence, revealed scripture.
No.
Joseph Smith revealed some of the original writings of Abraham (and details about Abraham's life).
You aren't going to believe they are revealed if you don't believe he was a prophet of God and could reveal anything. These revealed accounts are valuable only to those who understand the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith and all of God's prophets, because it teaches us about God and man's dealings with God.
And God isn't messing with anyone. You are invited to speak with God at any time to know the truthfulness of the gospel and whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. You can decide if this is a worthwhile pursuit or not.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:God is inviting you to suspend your disbelief and seek him and speak with him. Unless and until you are willing to do so, you are damned (literally stopped). This will be true in this life and the next. Even when you die, you will remain as you are - unable to believe or follow God until you give up your preconceptions, humble yourself, repent (literally change) and believe in and follow God. Now, you may view the Book of Abraham and Book of Mormon as a ridiculous hoax. That is your right, but those of us that have spoken with God value them and all of God's "revealed" words.
I have asked God. It's rather presumptuous of you to say I haven't or that I'm not willing to follow God. Speak for yourself, not me.
And your claim is they are not revealed by God. I claim they are. We'll see which of us is right. I would recommend all others speak with God about this matter and decide for themselves.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:Joseph Smith revealed some of the original writings of Abraham (and details about Abraham's life).
What did he reveal about Abraham that was not found in Josephus and other available texts?
You aren't going to believe they are revealed if you don't believe he was a prophet of God and could reveal anything. These revealed accounts are valuable only to those who understand the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith and all of God's prophets, because it teaches us about God and man's dealings with God.
I get it. You understand the gospel, so you feel entitled to pass judgment on my spiritual life and my interactions with God.
And God isn't messing with anyone. You are invited to speak with God at any time to know the truthfulness of the gospel and whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. You can decide if this is a worthwhile pursuit or not.
You act as if I have not done that.
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Bob Loblaw wrote:This. It's not a matter of suspending disbelief but rather of willfully ignoring reason and evidence. Not the same thing. I can suspend disbelief that Wonka candies are made by Oompa-Loompas, but that would involve ignoring the evidence that Wonka is just a subsidiary of Nestle.
If you wish to believe God is a fiction, that is your right. I believe that God is real and it is in your best interest to humble yourself, repent, seek him and follow him. Of course, you can believe and do whatever you want, as foolish as it may turn out to be.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom
Tobin wrote:And your claim is they are not revealed by God. I claim they are. We'll see which of us is right. I would recommend all others speak with God about this matter and decide for themselves.
No. My claim is simply this: the Book of Abraham is not a translation of papyrus, though it is claimed to be by Joseph Smith and the LDS church; also, the text is an anachronistic mess that screams fraud. You tell me to ask God if it's true. I have. You may value your spiritual witness over mine (which is your right), but I am glad that the answers to my prayers are consistent with the evidence. I don't have to put aside reason to believe. If God really wanted us to ignore reason, we could believe in anything. Why not pray about Smurfs or midi-chlorians or Xenu?
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:If you wish to believe God is a fiction, that is your right.
Don't put words into my mouth.
I believe that God is real and it is in your best interest to humble yourself, repent, seek him and follow him. Of course, you can believe and do whatever you want, as foolish as it may turn out to be.
You keep assuming that a) I don't believe in God and b) I have not humbled myself, repented, sought Him and followed Him. Again, rather presumptuous (and wrong).
"It doesn't seem fair, does it Norm--that I should have so much knowledge when there are people in the world that have to go to bed stupid every night." -- Clifford C. Clavin, USPS
"¡No contaban con mi astucia!" -- El Chapulin Colorado
Tobin wrote:Joseph Smith revealed some of the original writings of Abraham (and details about Abraham's life).
What did he reveal about Abraham that was not found in Josephus and other available texts?
You can claim everything is a derivative of something else. This is just another of those looney theories out there that Joseph Smith was the greatest scholar of all time and derived and distilled all this information from other sources.
Bob Loblaw wrote:
Tobin wrote:You aren't going to believe they are revealed if you don't believe he was a prophet of God and could reveal anything. These revealed accounts are valuable only to those who understand the gospel, as revealed by Joseph Smith and all of God's prophets, because it teaches us about God and man's dealings with God.
I get it. You understand the gospel, so you feel entitled to pass judgment on my spiritual life and my interactions with God.
So long as you will not believe or follow God or his prophets, I am certain you are damned. I don't have to pass judgement. It is just a fact of life.
Bob Loblaw wrote:
Tobin wrote:And God isn't messing with anyone. You are invited to speak with God at any time to know the truthfulness of the gospel and whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. You can decide if this is a worthwhile pursuit or not.
You act as if I have not done that.
I'm not the one disbelieving God's prophet or disputing his words. I value all of his words, no matter the source. That is the difference between us.
Last edited by Guest on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom