The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

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_MrStakhanovite
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Lemmie wrote:Except that their errors are not just stylistic. The authors specifically ruled out the universal event Ω being considered by their own definitions, in fact, they stated it would be dishonest to extend their set beyond A, which they are defining and therefore limiting to a subset of the universal event that is only found in Coe's book. Moreso, they are specifying that they are only considering elements of that subset A that they consider to be true. Defining an element of subset A as true a priori, and then determining that only those true elements of subset A are being considered does NOT allow for the possibility of considering the effect of an untrue element A after the initial conditions are set, nor does it allow for ANY consideration of an element of the universal set outside of A.

They set up their parameters, Stak. If they want to expand them, they need to re-write the paper.


I got a reply by one of the authors last night and this morning on the Mormon Interpreter. I didn't see them until this afternoon:

Brian Dale wrote:I will provide more detail tomorrow (it is late here already), but we actually used the odds form of Bayes theorem for this work. I tried to be careful to use the word odds instead of probability where appropriate for that form. But you are correct that we glossed over many details. We did not feel that it would have been helpful for the intended audience. And the methodology is rather basic so a bunch of formal lemmas would have been “lipstick on a pig”.



Brian Dale wrote:Hi Alfonsy,

So the exact form that we were using is:

O(H:~H|E)=O(H:~H) * P(E|H)/P(E|~H)
where O(H:~H) is the odds of the hypothesis over not the hypothesis and the rest of the terms have their usual meaning.

The term involving the ratio of the probabilities is the likelihood ratio or Bayes factor and is the quantity that describes the strength of the evidence.

You are completely correct that P(H|E) and P(E|H) are very different things. That is indeed the whole point of Bayes theorem.


In light of these clarifications I think my inclination to try to understand their argument as an application of formal theorem was misguided, they are definitely doing their own thing here.
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Gadianton »

Limiting the analysis to the mundane things that Coe put into his book was a clever trick to avoid the scores of anachronisms throughout the book that discredit it.


I totally agree -- I would personally word this, as I expressed earlier but didn't consider until you expressed it this way how strong the link is to coes book, as looking for mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon. This is what Brant turned to after failing to find the Book of Mormon in mesoamerica. Its a much, much lower bar, so low that i can't think of a candidate fact that would be unusual enough to count as a hit for Joseph Smith. Coes book superficially looks like using a critics own standards against him, but what it really is doing is limiting the analysis to looking for mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon. Brant even showed up at Interpreter warning all about the many controls needed to make such an analysis valid -- he does get it. Once the controls are understood, its pointless though.

Your suggestion is that we look for the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica. I agree. Im pretty sure critics would agree that if Nephi chapter 1 popped up in some random dig that theyd find it 1000 times more interesting than the combination of all suggested hits of mapping mesoamerica onto the Book of Mormon.
theres some easy computer code to show the theoretical difference also; might be fun.
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_MrStakhanovite
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _MrStakhanovite »

Brian Dale wrote:And the methodology is rather basic so a bunch of formal lemmas would have been “lipstick on a pig”.


I can't overemphasize how odious I think this attitude is. Why even bother to write a 100+ page essay in the first place?
_Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Everybody Wang Chung »

Wow! I just read the comments on the Interpreter's website. What a disaster of epic proportions.

Allen Wyatt just posted a comment where he is now telling people to calm down and that the Dale's research was not intended to show the that the Book of Mormon is historical, but only that Coe was wrong. Good grief!

Folks, you can't make this stuff up. I really hope that Dr. Scratch will expound on this Mopologetic massacre.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

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_Lemmie
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

Well, the Warriors lost last night, the series is tied up, and the next game is Wednesday!

I wanted to expand on the issue with the use of Bayesian factors I mentioned earlier. The paper notes that the method they use can also be used diagnostically to evaluate medical test results, and in fact, the factors they choose (2, 10, 50, and 1/2, 1/10, 1/50) seem to come from the medical literature where those factors are used as shortcuts to quickly approximate changes in posterior odds after tests.

( For example, see Simplifiying Likelihood Ratios )

As an example, consider getting a negative test (T-), when you could have the disease (D+) or not have the disease (D-). The likelihood ratio would be as follows:

p(T- | D+) / p(T- | D-)

The numerator is the probability that the test comes back negative when you have the disease.
The denominator is the probability the test comes back negative when you don't have the disease.

Note also that both probabilities, by definition, range from 0 to 1, inclusive.

In order for that ratio to have a value that is greater than 1, (like the 2, 10, or 50 from the article), the denominator would have to be less than 1. In other words, it must be possible that not having the disease could result in a negative test, or it could result in a positive test, such that testing negative without having the disease does not happen with a probability of 1.

Suppose the probability of getting a negative test when you have the disease is 60%. If the denominator was less than that, say 40%, then the ratio would be:

.6 / .4 = 1.5

If the denominator was equal to 1, then there is no value of the numerator (since it has to be between 0 and 1 inclusive), that would give a ratio equaling greater than 1.

Now let's apply this to the paper. Here is their definition of the likelihood ratio:

This likelihood ratio is the strength of each individual statement of fact as a piece of evidence. It is calculated as the probability that the statement is true if whoever wrote the Book of Mormon was guessing divided by the probability that the statement is true if instead the Book of Mormon is fact-based and essentially historical.


Therefore the ratio can be written as:

P(B|A) / P(B|~A),

Where A is defined in the paper as the hypothesis that the Book of Mormon is fictional;
~A is the hypothesis that the Book of Mormon is not fictional.

Also from the paper:
First, the Bayes factor specifically accounts for the possibility that the evidence may have occurred under the other hypotheses. This is accomplished in the denominator of the Bayes factor.

This is like the diagnostic ratio, in that the authors are saying that elements B (like T-) could occur if the Book of Mormon is fictional (like D+), or elements B could occur if it is historical (like D-)

Now we come to the problem.

For the authors to use this likelihood ratio, they must consider elements B that have the same properties as the T-, or negative test. In other words they need to test elements B that are both factual and nonfactual.

For example, elements B could be every statement in the Book of Mormon, both those known as factual, those known as nonfactual, those not known if they are either, etc. Every element needs to be part of the experiment.


Instead, the authors limit their testing to only 131 pieces of evidence, which they define as true statements of fact. From the paper:

 If the Book of Mormon is fiction, then its author was guessing every time he wrote as fact something about the ancient inhabitants of the Americas.

This means we can compare reasonably these “guesses” in the Book of Mormon with the facts presented by Dr. Coe in The Maya.
[bolding added]

If we compare this back to the medical testing, that would be like saying they are only considering negative tests results that occur when a person actually did not have the disease.

It would be like not considering the possibility that negative tests occur when the person has the disease, such that

p(T- | D-)

always equals 1.


Or in the case of the paper, the authors are picking out only elements B that correspond to factual elements B in The Maya. This means that the denominator of their likelihood ratio;

P(B | ~A)

is the probability that a factual statement is a fact, given that Book of Mormon factual statements are facts.

It will always be 1, by virtue of limiting the analysis to elements B that will always be facts that would correspond to facts if the Book of Mormon were factual.

Therefore their testing will always favor their hypothesis (~A) that the Book of Mormon is NOT fiction. Even in the few cases where they assign a ratio value of 2, 10, or 50, they are doing so by violating their own definitions.


Throughout the thread, several people have commented about issues such as limiting the scope to the 131 facts is biased, or that additional elements from the Book of Mormon should have been considered, or that the assigning of ratio values is skewed. These issues are all related to this mis-use of Bayesian factors.

In my opinion, this paper has severely mis-applied the concept of using likelihood ratios based upon Bayesian principles to update probabilities.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 07, 2019 7:39 pm, edited 3 times in total.
_SteelHead
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _SteelHead »

Garbage In - Garbage Out.
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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_Lemmie
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

Analytics wrote:Limiting the analysis to the mundane things that Coe put into his book was a clever trick to avoid the scores of anachronisms throughout the book that discredit it.
Exactly my point also! Well said, Analytics.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Dr Exiled »

SteelHead wrote:Garbage In - Garbage Out.


Garbage is all these a-holes have.
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_Lemmie
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Lemmie wrote:Except that their errors are not just stylistic. The authors specifically ruled out the universal event Ω being considered by their own definitions, in fact, they stated it would be dishonest to extend their set beyond A, which they are defining and therefore limiting to a subset of the universal event that is only found in Coe's book. Moreso, they are specifying that they are only considering elements of that subset A that they consider to be true. Defining an element of subset A as true a priori, and then determining that only those true elements of subset A are being considered does NOT allow for the possibility of considering the effect of an untrue element A after the initial conditions are set, nor does it allow for ANY consideration of an element of the universal set outside of A.

They set up their parameters, Stak. If they want to expand them, they need to re-write the paper.


I got a reply by one of the authors last night and this morning on the Mormon Interpreter. I didn't see them until this afternoon:

Brian Dale wrote:I will provide more detail tomorrow (it is late here already), but we actually used the odds form of Bayes theorem for this work. I tried to be careful to use the word odds instead of probability where appropriate for that form. But you are correct that we glossed over many details. We did not feel that it would have been helpful for the intended audience. And the methodology is rather basic so a bunch of formal lemmas would have been “lipstick on a pig”.



Brian Dale wrote:Hi Alfonsy,

So the exact form that we were using is:

O(H:~H|E)=O(H:~H) * P(E|H)/P(E|~H)
where O(H:~H) is the odds of the hypothesis over not the hypothesis and the rest of the terms have their usual meaning.

The term involving the ratio of the probabilities is the likelihood ratio or Bayes factor and is the quantity that describes the strength of the evidence.

You are completely correct that P(H|E) and P(E|H) are very different things. That is indeed the whole point of Bayes theorem.


In light of these clarifications I think my inclination to try to understand their argument as an application of formal theorem was misguided, they are definitely doing their own thing here.

:lol: I would have to agree, stak, it is definitely their own thing.
_Lemmie
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Re: The Interpreter; Bayes Theorem; Nephites and Mayans

Post by _Lemmie »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:Wow! I just read the comments on the Interpreter's website. What a disaster of epic proportions.

Allen Wyatt just posted a comment where he is now telling people to calm down and that the Dale's research was not intended to show the that the Book of Mormon is historical, but only that Coe was wrong. Good grief!

Folks, you can't make this stuff up. I really hope that Dr. Scratch will expound on this Mopologetic massacre.

Wow. Wyatt is backing way off the original position:
In case you miss it, this is an important point: The paper starts with what Coe claims about the Maya, not what the Book of Mormon claims or what Joseph Smith may have claimed.

The paper isn’t focused on “proving” the Book of Mormon. It is focused on showing that Coe cannot be correct if he states (as he has) that it is impossible for the Book of Mormon to have been situated in a Mesoamerican setting.

What comes from the whole analysis is that (1) Coe is mistaken and (2) the author of the Book of Mormon got a lot of stuff right that it should have been impossible to get right.

The point of the paper is to disprove Coe’s assertions, not to prove the Book of Mormon. (See the Summary on page 96. There is nothing there about proving the Book of Mormon.)
Here is the last sentence of the summary on page 96:
The cumulative weight of these correspondences, analyzed using Bayesian statistics, provides overwhelming support for the historicity of the Book of Mormon as an authentic, factual record set in ancient Mesoamerica.

And here is the last paragraph just prior to the summary on page 96:
We prefer a more rational, more intellectually honest conclusion: The Book of Mormon is a real historical record. It is authentic.

And Wyatt, again:
The point of the paper is to disprove Coe’s assertions, not to prove the Book of Mormon.
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