Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

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Marcus
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Marcus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:01 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 11:14 am

You missed policemen's balls? But your comment to ihq was priceless.
"I have. Repeatedly."
Yes.
What IHQ asked RI:
Can you give me a reasonable alternative way of interpreting what Bednar said in what I’ve quoted?
What Marcus quoted from RI’s answer:
I have. Repeatedly.
What Marcus failed to quote from RI’s answer:
So that’s my interpretation. Physical attractiveness is akin to physical limitations is akin to SSA because they are examples of challenges that we are all faced with in life. Being faced with a challenge is not sin.
Selective quotation that gives the opposite impression of what was actually said. Hmm. It must be opposite weekend. :lol: :lol: :lol:
No, it's refusal-to-answer-questions via stupid vid clip weekend:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:56 am
I Have Questions wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:49 am
Here’s what’s Bednar said…
I think the meaning of that isn’t complicated. He’s clearly saying that being attracted to the same sex is akin to having a body that is not fully functional. It’s right there. It could not be any clearer.

Was there a need for this?
https://youtu.be/G1juPBoxBdc?si=mRkkl4_N_ej566s9
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:41 am
Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:54 am
What arguments did you miss?
https://youtu.be/DkQhK8O9Jik?si=iQMzmbIn13XJ9Guo
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:02 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 2:01 pm


What IHQ asked RI:



What Marcus quoted from RI’s answer:



What Marcus failed to quote from RI’s answer:



Selective quotation that gives the opposite impression of what was actually said. Hmm. It must be opposite weekend. :lol: :lol: :lol:
No, it's refusal-to-answer-questions via stupid vid clip weekend:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Or is it refusal to answer questions via stupid questions weekend?
Res ipsa wrote:What arguments do you think you put forward?
Marcus wrote:What arguments did you miss?
Your question is dumb because you actually haven't presented any arguments. I think it's fair to say that your avoidance of a question that should be simple for you to answer via smart ass question begging is pretty good evidence that even you can't point out where you've made something that you consider to be an argument.

What you have done is made a number of assertions. When i've asked you questions to see if there's some kind of argument that backs up your asssertions, you either avoid them or post some new assertion that doesn't follow from the original one.

Then, a couple of pages later, you simply assert that your earlier assertions have been proven, or shown, or demonstrated. It's almost as if you consider your assertions to be arguments -- thus the analogy to the classic Monty Python sketch of the Argument Clinic.

If you think you've made an actual argument in this thread, then only you know what that is. Suggesting that I can somehow read your mind to know what in this thread you think isn't an argument isn't the clever riposte you seem to think it is. It's just plain dumb.

If you want to discuss the actual substance of the argument Bednar presents in his answer and effective ways to respond that stand a snowball's chance in hell of having some effect on someone who just nods along with Bednar, I'm 100% up for that. IF you want to play silly games to make yourself appear clever, you do you.
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Marcus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:29 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:02 pm

No, it's refusal-to-answer-questions via stupid vid clip weekend:


:lol: :lol: :lol:
Or is it refusal to answer questions via stupid questions weekend?
Res ipsa wrote:What arguments do you think you put forward?
Marcus wrote:What arguments did you miss?
Your question is dumb because you actually haven't presented any arguments. I think it's fair to say that your avoidance of a question that should be simple for you to answer via smart ass question begging is pretty good evidence that even you can't point out where you've made something that you consider to be an argument.

What you have done is made a number of assertions. When i've asked you questions to see if there's some kind of argument that backs up your asssertions, you either avoid them or post some new assertion that doesn't follow from the original one.

Then, a couple of pages later, you simply assert that your earlier assertions have been proven, or shown, or demonstrated. It's almost as if you consider your assertions to be arguments -- thus the analogy to the classic Monty Python sketch of the Argument Cli :lol: :lol: nic.

If you think you've made an actual argument in this thread, then only you know what that is. Suggesting that I can somehow read your mind to know what in this thread you think isn't an argument isn't the clever riposte you seem to think it is. It's just plain dumb.

If you want to discuss the actual substance of the argument Bednar presents in his answer and effective ways to respond that stand a snowball's chance in hell of having some effect on someone who just nods along with Bednar, I'm 100% up for that. IF you want to play silly games to make yourself appear clever, you do you.
:lol: I agree, you posting silly video clips as responses is you playing a silly game. I don't agree it makes you appear clever, though you seemed to think so at the time.

And I have to tell you, your misrepresentation of my participation in this thread is some master-level trolling. You sounded like mentalgymnast for a bit there!

But, I'll leave you to 'you do[ing] you' as you so non-eloquently put it. Moving on.
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Just my 2 cents ref Bednar equating SSA to a disability - I thought that’s what he meant; it seemed clear to me.

- Doc
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by MG 2.0 »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:54 pm

And I have to tell you, your misrepresentation of my participation in this thread is some master-level trolling. You sounded like mentalgymnast for a bit there!

But, I'll leave you to 'you do[ing] you' as you so non-eloquently put it. Moving on.
Yeah, moving on…

Seen that before.

I’m not the lawyer, but to read Res Ipsa’s dismantling of Marcus is worth the price of admission. In all the times I’ve interacted with her I wish I could have spoken so eloquently to explain the nuts and bolts of her modus operandi.

Regards,
MG
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 5:30 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 4:54 pm

And I have to tell you, your misrepresentation of my participation in this thread is some master-level trolling. You sounded like mentalgymnast for a bit there!

But, I'll leave you to 'you do[ing] you' as you so non-eloquently put it. Moving on.
Yeah, moving on…

Seen that before.

I’m not the lawyer, but to read Res Ipsa’s dismantling of Marcus is worth the price of admission. In all the times I’ve interacted with her I wish I could have spoken so eloquently to explain the nuts and bolts of her modus operandi.

Regards,
MG
Straight up, MG. Everyone has patterns in the way they interact. The ironic part is that our own patterns are practically invisible to ourselves. Engaging in substantive, good faith, argument takes time and effort. But most of the time, there's no real payoff. So, for the brain, it's wasted energy. So, the brain resists spending the energy by relying on patterns and heuristics rather that investing the time and energy needed to fully understand what someone else is saying. It's a feature, not a bug. There are no rewards for making a strong argument on an anonymous message board and there are no punishments for making a weak argument. (Assuming that your ego isn't invested in the reactions of other anonymous posters.)

You've interacted with me often enough to be able to spot patterns. But, like anyone else, you have to do your best not to impose patterns on my posting that are a product of personal bias. So, I'm 100% percent certain that if you sat down and reviewed a set of my interactions with you and other posters, you would find patterns. And I'm 100% percent certain that if you told me what they were, my reflexive response would be to deny them. But, if you pulled out the posts you reviewed, you could show me the patterns and the evidence would be difficult to refute. In fact, I'd look disingenuous if I tried.

But, it just so happens that the art of argument is something that caught my interest before I became a lawyer. It's intrinsically interesting to me how valid or persuasive (the two not being interchangeable) are put together. That interest dovetails nicely with my profession. Part of the job is to persuade a judge or jury. I do motion practice, not trial work, so for me it's judges. And, while constructing a straw man around here is almost part of the culture, in court it's a guaranteed way to lose a motion that you should really win. And the only way to avoid that is to start by doing your best to understand your opponents actual argument, rather than letting your energy conscious brain do it the lazy way.

In my area of practice, most of what I do is look at language over which there is some dispute. Then I look at a bunch of cases that don't answer the question, but provide a basis for understanding how to interpret the language in dispute. Then I prepare an analysis, not of how I think the language should be interpreted, but how a judge is most likely to interpret the language. It's a weird exercise that requires me to be aware of and resist all of those biases (energy saving shortcuts) that my brain is wired with.

So, I'm the guy who is obsessed with playing the piano who practices for thousands of hours and develops enough skill through practice to play show tunes at parties. Or something.

A good analogy for the back and forth in an argument is a chess game. There are certain patterns of movements that chess masters employ reflexively in the early game. There are recognizable gambits with names. Study the other player's patterns, and you can up your own game, so to speak.

So, yes, Marcus has a pretty recognizable set of "moves," just like almost everyone does. It's baked into our brains. And here's the real trick: a person's set of moves has nothing to do with the kind of person they are. People use those moves because they've worked for them. It's trial and error, most of which we don't consciously think about.

I'm going to use one example that has been part of some of our conversations. A move that you use pretty frequently is what I've labeled as "ad hom." When I do that, I'm not criticizing your character or judging you to be a bad person. What I'm doing is literally simply labeling it when you do it. All it means is this: you have shifted from addressing the subject we've been discussing to something about me. That shift, which we could call a derail or ad hom or trolling or Fred, is not a legitimate response to the substance of what I've said and signals weakness in your argument.

I can understand why you might experience that as a criticism of you as a person. But that's not what I'm trying to communicate when I label something as ad hom. I'd be happy to walk though one of those exchanges we've had an explain exactly why I'm responding the way I do. Now that I've laid out precisely what I'm doing, I'll try to do it with a little less "drama."

I can't say enough times that I don't consider what I'm talking about a judgment on your character. The sad fact is that what I'm describing is deeply embedded in the culture of interactions between LDS believers and critics. Go back and read some threads from back in the good old days before the hardcore apologists decided to change venue. It will pretty much jump off the page. It probably feels good to vent one's spleen at an enemy combatant, but as argument, it totally sucks.

And I'm not holding myself out as a superior being who never drops and ad hom. I try hard to avoid it when I'm trying to be my best Res Ipsa, but I can get angry or frustrated like anyone else.

There are all kinds of moves one could make in response to an ad hom move. One example would be a strategy from game theory. Tit for tat or one of its variations. Or escalation. Or silence. Or global thermonuclear war. For you, I choose "label" So, we could describe the interaction as:

MG: [move - ad hom]
RI: [move - label]

How would you describe how responded to my move in our previous discussions?
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holding each other’s hands.


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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Marcus »

I think it's fair to say that your avoidance of a question that should be simple for you to answer via smart ass question begging is pretty good evidence that even you can't point out where you've made something that you consider to be an argument.
lol. No, it's not "fair" to say that. I didn't respond to your nonsensical questions because they were nonsensical.

End of story.

And your story of how you're the equivalent of some top-notch artist at evaluating words is precious. Mommy is very proud of you, you adorable little child. :roll:

Back to the topic.


This post about bednar's comments was quite interesting, here is an excerpt:
...The video linked above was posted on Biblioteca SUD’s Facebook page late on Sunday evening. It features Elder Bednar’s answer to a Q&A session given to a Spanish-speaking audience from earlier in February. This stark and shocking answer — similar as it is to Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad’s comments to Columbia University in September of 2007 that “In Iran we don’t have homosexuals like in your country” — came as the beginning of a response to the following question from Chile:

“How can homosexual members of the church live and remain steadfast in the Gospel?”

Elder Bednar’s response has taken the Mormon internet by storm, and it’s particular become a fertile ground for use of Facebook’s new “angry” reaction. I will not decline anyone his or her anger, but I also wanted to provide some thoughts as dispassionately as I could about the sort of philosophy and theology implied by Bednar’s statement (or in his following comments).

Elder Bednar Employs Person-First Language (Sorta) to Sexual Orientation

The first thing I noticed from Bednar’s comments was that it struck me as a very “person-first” framing. In case you aren’t familiar, according to Wikipedia:



Person-first language has become relatively popular in certain accessibility circles, but it is not without its critics, of course. Some criticize person-first language simply on linguistic grounds — in English, adjectives characteristically come before nouns, and this isn’t meant to imply any dehumanization. And, one could certainly understand a social conservative criticizing this movement as another example of “political correctness” gone amok. And yet, there are some other opponents to this linguistic prescription.

As the wikipedia article also points out,


and would you guess who is also opposed to person first language? Turns out many disabled communities themselves oppose it. Deaf culture explicitly embraces “Deaf first language” as Deafness is seen as a positive identity and a source of pride. Additionally, there have been comments from organizations in support of blind people, autistic people, and so on.

It’s just as that wikipedia line says — person-first language often implies that a trait is bad or less-than.

And so, we can see what Elder Bednar is doing is something similar. He wants to establish a core identity as something of worth…like, say, being a child of God…and then separate traits that he views as inherently bad or “less than” (such as same-sex attraction) as non-core.

I recall telling people at several times that I didn’t think the “born this way” rhetoric would be effective at changing everyone’s mind…because ultimately, whether LGBT traits are chosen or inborn, the real distinction is whether one views these traits as good or neutral, or bad. If you’ve been in discussion on homosexuality on the internet for any length of time, you’ve likely heard people compare it to alcoholism or a propensity to violence — as much as this befuddles an LGBT person or LGBT ally, the disconnect here is that the person making this comparison views all of these traits as bad things. The LGBT ally cannot change this perception simply by arguing that sexual orientation is inborn.

Elder Bednar does not employ person-first language to gender

There are quite a few wrinkles in the previous section that complicate everything. For example, in a person-first linguistic setting, one’s worth is tied to their personhood…and everything other trait is an appendage that can neither upgrade nor degrade that basic worth.

But as was pointed out several times (and Elder Bednar emphasizes this several times in his answer, and even has a followup answer on this), in Mormonism, one’s basic worth isn’t as a person. One isn’t simply a child of God. Rather, one is always a son of God or a daughter of God, and this has theological and practical implications in Mormonism.

In this sense, gender roles and expectations relating heteronormative family ideals are baked into one’s core identity as a child of God, and any departure from those gender roles is dismissed as a trial of the flesh or is set up as an opposition to God’s order. This isn’t just LGBT, this is intersex. It’s not even just those things; it’s a failure to live into the sorts of role expectations that the church has for men vs. for women…men as fathers, husbands, and priesthood holders…women as mothers, wives, and…(what was the parallel equivalent to priesthood holder, again?) It could even be remaining single. As Bednar says:

Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the family is central to the Father’s plan for the eternal destiny and happiness of his children. That plan is halted in anything but a marriage between a man and a woman.

So, what about gays…err…those experiencing same-sex attraction?
Through Bednar’s rhetoric, a lot of other things that the church has done or advocated in the past make more sense. If we see the church as an organization that promotes an ideal for all sons and daughters of God — without respect for whether that ideal would fit someone or not — then it makes sense for the church to advocate for mixed-orientation marriages, even though we now know how much heartache this has caused (and continues to cause).

Quite simply, from Bednar’s logic, he cannot really offer anything to LGBT (err…those experiencing same-sex attraction) members other than assurance that they should remain obedient (or hope that in the afterlife, they will be able to participate in that most central aspect to the Father’s plan (the heteronormative family.)

Do Elder Bednar’s comments imply that every member is heterosexual deep down, or even that the Atonement will make people straight in the afterlife? Or does the church’s answer that people are agents to act and not be acted upon even make heterosexuality irrelevant? Why would anyone want to have an eternal heterosexual marriage unless, here or in the hereafter, they became straight?

Hopefully, this won’t be too much of a downer quote, but fellow W&T coblogger Mary Ann pointed me to this quotation from Robert Millet:

“In general we could say that men and women, in and out of the Church, have been taunted and titillated with views concerning man, woman, priesthood, and family that are at odds with the revealed word and thus with ‘things as they really are, and … as they really will be’ (Jacob 4:13) …. No person who revolts against the divinely established role and calling he or she was given before the foundations of this earth were laid can be happy or find real fulfillment, not here or in eternity."

I can only hope that vulnerable people will listen to their own senses of worth and value and do whatever they must to be OK with themselves before they listen to messages like these and come to internalize such hopeless messages.

https://wheatandtares.org/2016/03/01/th ... he-church/
Marcus
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Marcus »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Oct 14, 2023 8:50 pm
lol.
[move: ridicule person]
Marcus wrote:"No, it's not "fair" to say that."
[move: unsupported contradiction]
Marcus wrote:I didn't respond to your nonsensical questions because they were nonsensical.
[move: gaslight - deflect]
Marcus wrote:End of story.
[move: control]
Marcus wrote:And your story of how you're the equivalent of some top-notch artist at evaluating words is precious. Mommy is very proud of you, you adorable little child. :roll:
[move: gaslight - ridicule]
Marcus wrote:Back to the topic.
[move: control; avoid question]
Marcus wrote:This post about bednar's comments was quite interesting, here is an excerpt:


https://wheatandtares.org/2016/03/01/th ... he-church/
[move: control; avoid]

RI: [move: label]
[/quote]

Res Ipsa, did you use your moderator powers to EDIT MY POST???????
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Res Ipsa »

Marcus wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:27 am

[move: ridicule person]



[move: unsupported contradiction]



[move: gaslight - deflect]



[move: control]



[move: gaslight - ridicule]



[move: control; avoid question]



[move: control; avoid]

RI: [move: label]

Res Ipsa, did you use your moderator powers to EDIT MY POST???????

[/quote]

Apologies. I thought I was replying in a quote window, not an edit window. I'll undo.
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holding each other’s hands.


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Marcus
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Re: Bednar claims the church is growing and vibrant

Post by Marcus »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:33 am
Marcus wrote:
Sun Oct 15, 2023 1:27 am

Res Ipsa, did you use your moderator powers to EDIT MY POST???????
Apologies. I thought I was replying in a quote window, not an edit window. I'll undo.
[/quote]
You need to do a damned bit more than undo, you piece of crap. What an unbelievable misuse of your moderator powers. What the actual “F”, you idiot.
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