Excellent takedown of Mopologist DNA misinformation

[malkie]

Anyway, I have a suggestion - why don't we return to the topic of the thread, and let this derail just fade away.

Sounds like a plan. Although I do disagree that Marcus was "spot on"...of course I would, right? I think my posts on this matter may come closer to the actual truth/reality.

But yeah, this is enough of a derail. I suppose we could go round and round on what motivates critics and exmormons to show up here day after day to diss a church/religion they no longer believe in.

The only answer that seems to be agreed upon is that it is in response (to fight back?) LDS missionaries going out and knocking on doors pushing the gospel message.

Regards,
MG

I think you're mistaken, but if you want to believe that's an agreed upon answer, who am I to contradict you.

[I Have Questions]

Marcus' spot-on comment would, in my opinion, have been an excellent opportunity for you to TTOC, instead of inventing "lives" for people you don't know. The amount of time you spend here writing these fictions makes me wonder about your life.

Anyway, I have a suggestion - why don't we return to the topic of the thread, and let this derail just fade away.

Excellent point. Here's a piece of Southerton's excellent essay that I really appreciated:

This is a very clear summing up of the current approach, and it helps considerably in evaluating the apologetic stance. Southerton continues explaining what Rappleye is trying to accomplish:

...Today, the apologist's arguments are presented by unqualified zealots like Jasmin, but they are based on 20-year-old BYU apologetic responses to maternal and paternal DNA research.

Here I respond to the four main arguments that BYU-aligned apologists still persist with. Keep an eye out for when they focus attention on how easy it is to lose an individual's DNA. The quotes below are based on the text accompanying Jasmin’s video. Interestingly, Jasmin has recently ditched Scripture Central, followed prophetic counsel (and the money more likely) and “put on a little lipstick”, and started her own apologetic channel. Good for her. We now get to see just how crazy she gets without those annoying suits at Scripture Central reining her in.

Southerton has four great examples, this one is the one I found most relevant for me given the excuses I read:

...2. Lehite DNA was diluted away

The Americas were already populated. Lehi’s family of like 20 people would have interacted almost immediately with the larger indigenous populations, forever complicating efforts to trace their DNA lineages.

The Book of Mormon states clearly that the descendants of Lehi “prospered” and “multiplied exceedingly” in the land. They continuously led New World civilisations with large populations for a thousand years. So, let’s stop ignoring what the text says and pretending the Lehites would have made no impact on New World populations. Even if they were a small group, as they mixed with indigenous populations their genes will have moved into the surrounding populations. Indigenous populations will have preserved their DNA rather than causing its extinction.

We have a beautiful illustration of this happening out in the Pacific. In 2020 scientists discovered that people living in French Polynesia carried small traces of Zenu (Colombian) DNA that had arrived in about AD 1230. Given the sailing skill of Polynesians, it is almost certain this Zenu DNA was brought into the Pacific on a return voyage of Polynesians who had reached the coast of Colombia in about AD 1230. The highest concentrations of Zenu DNA were found in the North and South Marquesas Islands (4%). But scientists found traces of Zenu DNA (as little as 0.01%) in numerous other islands in Eastern Polynesia that were separated by many thousands of miles of ocean. The Zenu DNA was preserved in Polynesian populations in exactly the way we would expect Lehi’s DNA to be preserved in the Americas. See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2487-2

I bolded the part above that, for me, most emphatically counters the objections. Southerton's explanation that follows is exemplary.

...They have found nothing because the Book of Mormon is fake history.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... _fair_and/

Exactly.

Southerton’s comprehensive rebuttals of DNA apologetics show the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. They haven’t found any traces of “Lehi” DNA because there was no Lehi. It didn’t happen. Southern has slammed the door in the face of DNA apologetics.

[MG 2.0]

Sounds like a plan. Although I do disagree that Marcus was "spot on"...of course I would, right? I think my posts on this matter may come closer to the actual truth/reality.

But yeah, this is enough of a derail. I suppose we could go round and round on what motivates critics and exmormons to show up here day after day to diss a church/religion they no longer believe in.

The only answer that seems to be agreed upon is that it is in response (to fight back?) LDS missionaries going out and knocking on doors pushing the gospel message.

Regards,
MG

Former alcoholics make good guides away from alcoholism.

Ex-Mormons similarly tend to be good guides out of the LDS religion. Places like this were invaluable for me.

But it obviously is a very narrow and restricted view offered in these places. This one being a prime example.

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

Sounds like a plan. Although I do disagree that Marcus was "spot on"...of course I would, right? I think my posts on this matter may come closer to the actual truth/reality.

But yeah, this is enough of a derail. I suppose we could go round and round on what motivates critics and exmormons to show up here day after day to diss a church/religion they no longer believe in.

The only answer that seems to be agreed upon is that it is in response (to fight back?) LDS missionaries going out and knocking on doors pushing the gospel message.

Regards,
MG

I think you're mistaken, but if you want to believe that's an agreed upon answer, who am I to contradict you.

Your voice is as important as any other.

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

Excellent point. Here's a piece of Southerton's excellent essay that I really appreciated:

This is a very clear summing up of the current approach, and it helps considerably in evaluating the apologetic stance. Southerton continues explaining what Rappleye is trying to accomplish:



Southerton has four great examples, this one is the one I found most relevant for me given the excuses I read:

I bolded the part above that, for me, most emphatically counters the objections. Southerton's explanation that follows is exemplary.

Exactly.

Southerton’s comprehensive rebuttals of DNA apologetics show the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. They haven’t found any traces of “Lehi” DNA because there was no Lehi. It didn’t happen. Southern has slammed the door in the face of DNA apologetics.

Yes he has. Several times.

[MG 2.0]

Excellent point. Here's a piece of Southerton's excellent essay that I really appreciated:

This is a very clear summing up of the current approach, and it helps considerably in evaluating the apologetic stance. Southerton continues explaining what Rappleye is trying to accomplish:



Southerton has four great examples, this one is the one I found most relevant for me given the excuses I read:

I bolded the part above that, for me, most emphatically counters the objections. Southerton's explanation that follows is exemplary.

Exactly.

Southerton’s comprehensive rebuttals of DNA apologetics show the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. They haven’t found any traces of “Lehi” DNA because there was no Lehi. It didn’t happen. Southern has slammed the door in the face of DNA apologetics.

Not so fast!!

The door hasn't been slammed shut. You are not a geneticist. You have a pre-existing bias. But, you are entitled to your uneducated belief. As are others, including myself. I read Southerton's book years ago and also had a very brief email exchange with him. He seems like a good guy and he is a bona fide geneticist.

But he hasn't been in direct conversation with other experts as far as I know. He speaks from his 'ivory tower' across the ocean to other ivory towers but the parties don't make the effort, as far as I know (could be wrong), to get together and duke it out.

I'd like to see a sit down between him and Ugo Perego, Michael Whiting, and Keith Crandall. Then, you...along with me...could see the experts talk with each other rather than across the gulf of disbelief/belief.

As it is, over the years I've read apologetics and stuff from Southerton (been a while) and have not closed the door and slammed it shut as you apparently have.

Are you a scientist trained in a field that has some expertise in population genetics?

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Southerton’s comprehensive rebuttals of DNA apologetics show the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. They haven’t found any traces of “Lehi” DNA because there was no Lehi. It didn’t happen. Southern has slammed the door in the face of DNA apologetics.

Not so fast!!

The door hasn't been slammed shut. You are not a geneticist. You have a pre-existing bias. But, you are entitled to your uneducated belief. As are others, including myself. I read Southerton's book years ago and also had a very brief email exchange with him. He seems like a good guy and he is a bona fide geneticist.

But he hasn't been in direct conversation with other experts as far as I know. He speaks from his 'ivory tower' across the ocean to other ivory towers but the parties don't make the effort, as far as I know (could be wrong), to get together and duke it out.

I'd like to see a sit down between him and Ugo Perego, Michael Whiting, and Keith Crandall. Then, you...along with me...could see the experts talk with each other rather than across the gulf of disbelief/belief.

As it is, over the years I've read apologetics and stuff from Southerton (been a while) and have not closed the door and slammed it shut as you apparently have.

Are you a scientist trained in a field that has some expertise in population genetics?

Regards,
MG

TTOC

[I Have Questions]

Southerton’s comprehensive rebuttals of DNA apologetics show the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. They haven’t found any traces of “Lehi” DNA because there was no Lehi. It didn’t happen. Southern has slammed the door in the face of DNA apologetics.

Yes he has. Several times.

His research is well thought through and comprehensively evidenced. Unlike DNA apologetics.

[MG 2.0]

Not so fast!!

The door hasn't been slammed shut. You are not a geneticist. You have a pre-existing bias. But, you are entitled to your uneducated belief. As are others, including myself. I read Southerton's book years ago and also had a very brief email exchange with him. He seems like a good guy and he is a bona fide geneticist.

But he hasn't been in direct conversation with other experts as far as I know. He speaks from his 'ivory tower' across the ocean to other ivory towers but the parties don't make the effort, as far as I know (could be wrong), to get together and duke it out.

I'd like to see a sit down between him and Ugo Perego, Michael Whiting, and Keith Crandall. Then, you...along with me...could see the experts talk with each other rather than across the gulf of disbelief/belief.

As it is, over the years I've read apologetics and stuff from Southerton (been a while) and have not closed the door and slammed it shut as you apparently have.

Are you a scientist trained in a field that has some expertise in population genetics?

Regards,
MG

TTOC

Really? That's a closed mind.

Regards,
MG

[I Have Questions]

Southerton’s comprehensive rebuttals of DNA apologetics show the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. They haven’t found any traces of “Lehi” DNA because there was no Lehi. It didn’t happen. Southern has slammed the door in the face of DNA apologetics.

Yes he has. Several times.

This is another good example of Southerton’s quality and professionalism.