African Book of Mormon translations starting to remove “skin of blackness” and other racist phraseology

[consiglieri]

It appears I am late to the party.

Here is what I have been up to:

1. I had heard this rumor of an African language not translating as "skin of blackness" at 2 Nephi 5:21, which I believe I saw on Reddit a number of weeks ago, but after I had done the original episode on the "selections" translations of the Book of Mormon. At that point, I knew I wanted to revisit the issue and explore it further, because it sounded very much like more of the same from the great and spacious.

2. I serendipitously saw Shulem's thread on the subject and read the first post or two and inwardly thanked Shulem for doing the heavy lifting for me. I cleared out the time and planned on doing the slides and preparation today and recording and releasing the episode tomorrow. It would be glorious. It would be devastating. And all I had to do was copy and paste from Shulem's work, giving him ample credit, of course. (I even texted Shulem a couple of days ago. Did you receive it?)

3. I sat down this morning to begin reading the full thread. I saw Shulem's work on the Book of Mormon translation into Chichewa. I knew at a minimum I would have to check Shulem's work before presenting it, and I used the same translator Shulem used, and received the same result, "black blindness." I rubbed my hands gleefully. This was going to be great.

4. I then wanted to know which word of the expression "khungu lakuda" was black and which was blindness. I asked google what the Chichewa word, "khungu" means in English, and received the following: "In Chichewa, the word khungu most commonly translates to blindness. It refers to the state of being unable to see. In some contexts, however, it can also relate to a covering or skin." I wondered why the church would use a word that primarily means "blindness" and only secondarily means "skin" for this passage. Why not simply use the Chichewa word that has "skin" as its primary meaning?

5. So I did further research, coming at it from another direction, and simply asked what the Chichewa word "khungu" means in English. The response was "skin." Nothing about blindness.

6. Still wanting to confirm this, I found a webpage that contains the Chichewa words for the different parts of the human body. learnentry.com/english-chichewa/vocabulary/body-parts-in-chichewa/

7. When I scroll down to "skin," there is only one word opposite it in Chichewa: "Khungu." Taking this all together, it does appear that the Chichewa Book of Mormon expression "khungu lakuda" should be translated into English as "black skin" or "skin of blackness." (I looked up "lakuda" as well and it means "black" in English.)

I did all this before getting off the first page of this thread and was heartened to see as I read further that you had already come to this conclusion on your own.

My only question is what I am going to podcast about tomorrow, and whether I should podcast about this very subject, since it is a subject of controversy in this small corner of the internet. I guess I could always go back to my "niche YouTube noise."

Hope you all are doing well.

Happy New Year!

--Consiglieri

[Marcus]

The Great Spirit® rested upon me when I typed *his* and all I could think of was Marcus!

Marcus!

Where are uuuuu?

Very late to the party, apparently!!!! (excellent joke, by the way, the teeth of mentalgymnasts will gnash everywhere... )

Great to hear from you, Shulem, happy new year!!

[Shulem]

My only question is what I am going to podcast about tomorrow, and whether I should podcast about this very subject, since it is a subject of controversy in this small corner of the internet. I guess I could always go back to my "niche YouTube noise."

Thanks for checking in on the thread, Consig! Feel free to contact me via private message on this board. I dumped my old phone quite some time ago and have since retired.

I'm not confident on how to proceed with this thread but have found it to be a valuable exercise in taking a closer look. But the ducks are not lined up and there are variables and gaps that have to be sorted out in showing how the Church may be messing around with the translation. It certainly is something the Church does not like to bring up or talk about.

I would recommend further review and data collection before getting too involved in a podcast that could prove premature if we are misunderstanding the data. I think this thread can serve as a reference as well as the Bradely thread (bless his heart) in showing how the Church has a long history of racism in support of white supremacy.

[Shulem]

Great to hear from you, Shulem, happy new year!!

Yes, and you have a happy new year too!

Thanks for checking in on this thread which was designed to explore and research this particular issue in real time and then let the chips fall where they will.

[Shulem]

3. I sat down this morning to begin reading the full thread. I saw Shulem's work on the Book of Mormon translation into Chichewa. I knew at a minimum I would have to check Shulem's work before presenting it, and I used the same translator Shulem used, and received the same result, "black blindness." I rubbed my hands gleefully. This was going to be great.

I hear you, I was rubbing my hands too only to have to stop rubbing them and face the music for what it was. lol

Great job on your podcast and for keeping it to just 32 minutes!

Black Skin a Curse from God?

It certainly raises your credibility and shows you're making every effort to report fairly. I think we are on the same page in just wanting to know the truth wherever it takes us.

[Shulem]

Black Skin a Curse from God?

Sorry ass apologetic ramblings have polluted the comments section for RFM's podcast. Here are just a few:

THIS IS MORE FAKE NEWS. THE LDS CHURCH HAS ALWAYS HAD BLACK MEMBERS AND PRIESTHOOD HOLDERS. ONLY THOSE FROM THE LINE OF CAIN WERE TEMPORARILY DENIED. Jesus DID THE SAME THING.

Radio Free Moron is either a troll or his lawyer skills are failing him. The dark skin was the sign of the curse not the curse itself. And the Book of Mormon has nothing to do with the Africans, the curse was on the Lamanites. What a dumb ass.

Black skin was never a curse from God, especially because it’s not a curse. And it was never born in LDS teaching. Nor was it taught by Joseph Smith.

etc.

Stupid dumb Mormons! And why are they so stupid? Because apologists make them stupid by producing articles such as come out of the Interpreter poop hole, via Dan Peterson's stink.

f-u, Dan. Go to hell. You're just a 2nd grade school teacher. If that!

You're no match for Shulem, u dumb ass. I know more than you. And, I know the Book of Mormon better than you u!

U old fart.

[Equality]

It appears I am late to the party.

Here is what I have been up to:

1. I had heard this rumor of an African language not translating as "skin of blackness" at 2 Nephi 5:21, which I believe I saw on Reddit a number of weeks ago, but after I had done the original episode on the "selections" translations of the Book of Mormon. At that point, I knew I wanted to revisit the issue and explore it further, because it sounded very much like more of the same from the great and spacious.

2. I serendipitously saw Shulem's thread on the subject and read the first post or two and inwardly thanked Shulem for doing the heavy lifting for me. I cleared out the time and planned on doing the slides and preparation today and recording and releasing the episode tomorrow. It would be glorious. It would be devastating. And all I had to do was copy and paste from Shulem's work, giving him ample credit, of course. (I even texted Shulem a couple of days ago. Did you receive it?)

3. I sat down this morning to begin reading the full thread. I saw Shulem's work on the Book of Mormon translation into Chichewa. I knew at a minimum I would have to check Shulem's work before presenting it, and I used the same translator Shulem used, and received the same result, "black blindness." I rubbed my hands gleefully. This was going to be great.

4. I then wanted to know which word of the expression "khungu lakuda" was black and which was blindness. I asked google what the Chichewa word, "khungu" means in English, and received the following: "In Chichewa, the word khungu most commonly translates to blindness. It refers to the state of being unable to see. In some contexts, however, it can also relate to a covering or skin." I wondered why the church would use a word that primarily means "blindness" and only secondarily means "skin" for this passage. Why not simply use the Chichewa word that has "skin" as its primary meaning?

5. So I did further research, coming at it from another direction, and simply asked what the Chichewa word "khungu" means in English. The response was "skin." Nothing about blindness.

6. Still wanting to confirm this, I found a webpage that contains the Chichewa words for the different parts of the human body. learnentry.com/english-chichewa/vocabulary/body-parts-in-chichewa/

7. When I scroll down to "skin," there is only one word opposite it in Chichewa: "Khungu." Taking this all together, it does appear that the Chichewa Book of Mormon expression "khungu lakuda" should be translated into English as "black skin" or "skin of blackness." (I looked up "lakuda" as well and it means "black" in English.)

I did all this before getting off the first page of this thread and was heartened to see as I read further that you had already come to this conclusion on your own.

My only question is what I am going to podcast about tomorrow, and whether I should podcast about this very subject, since it is a subject of controversy in this small corner of the internet. I guess I could always go back to my "niche YouTube noise."

Hope you all are doing well.

Happy New Year!

--Consiglieri

I found this comment from a HollyHobby-i2 at the RFM YouTube page interesting. Are we sure "khungu lakuda" isn't misleading?

From apple chat gpt which is far more accurate than Android Chat gpt (which does hallucinate) so android can promote Gemini:

So, fyi:

Here’s a breakdown:
Chichewa is the standard form of the language, and it’s used in schools, media, and official settings in Malawi, where it’s the national language. It’s based on the dialects spoken by the Chewa people but has been standardized for broader use.
Chewa refers to the specific dialects spoken by the Chewa people in different regions. While the Chewa people in Malawi, Zambia, and Mozambique speak variations of Chichewa, there are slight differences in how they speak, based on local influences, history, and geography. These regional dialects might have different vocabulary, pronunciation, or grammar, but they’re still very much understandable to each other.
So, it’s like how in Spanish, there are different accents and variations depending on the country or region (like Mexican Spanish versus Argentinian Spanish). The people speaking Chichewa in Malawi might use slightly different phrases or sounds than those speaking it in Zambia or Mozambique, but they are all still considered the same language.
The difference is minor, but there are definitely subtle changes that reflect regional identity.

Context in the Book of Mormon:
In 2 Nephi 5:21 and 2 Nephi 30:6, the original text uses language like "dark and loathsome" or "white and delightsome" to describe the Lamanites before and after the curse. These references have historically been tied to skin color, but in modern interpretations, the meaning is often viewed as more metaphorical or spiritual, focusing on a person's condition or relationship with God rather than their physical appearance.
Breaking down the translation "Khunga Lakuda":

Khunga: As we've discussed, khunga generally means skin, protection, or outer layer. It’s used to describe something that shields or covers, so it has a more protective or physical meaning, but not necessarily related to color.
Lakuda: Lakuda refers to love or affection, from the verb "kuda", meaning "to love" or "to like."

So, "khunga lakuda" literally translates to something like "the protection of love" or "love's shelter," which carries a symbolic or metaphorical meaning related to protection, comfort, or affection. It doesn't directly refer to skin color or physical appearance in the way that the original English text talks about "darkened skin" or "white and delightsome".

Would it be an accurate translation for the original verses?

No, "khunga lakuda" does not directly translate the original meanings of "darkened skin" or "white and delightsome".

The original English text uses "dark" and "white" specifically in relation to skin color, while "khunga lakuda" seems to shift the focus to something more spiritual or symbolic.

If the intent of the translation was to avoid the racial implications of the original phrasing and to focus on spiritual protection or blessing, then "khunga lakuda" might be a way to reinterpret or reframe the text in a positive and non-racially charged way. It would emphasize protection and love as the key concepts instead of focusing on the physical aspects of skin color.

In summary:
"Khunga lakuda" does not directly translate the concept of skin color. Instead, it focuses on the idea of protection and love.
If the goal was to avoid racial connotations and focus on spiritual aspects, this translation could be seen as an attempt to soften or shift the meaning in a more symbolic direction.
The accuracy of this translation really depends on the translation philosophy being used: if the goal is to focus on spiritual meanings rather than literal skin color, then "khunga lakuda" could work. But if you want a more literal translation of "darkened skin" or "white and delightsome", "khunga lakuda" would not fit those meanings directly.

Originally chat gpt stated that Khunga meant protection or covering. I had to prompt it to accept "skin" as the covering or protection.