Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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DrW
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by DrW »

azflyer wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:26 pm
The challenge with this situation is not to precisely identify what happened with the airplane, but to understand how Nelson's brain was interpreting everything that was going on.
azflyer,

Thank you for the describing some of the background that motivates your approach on the events being discussed. As described on an earlier thread, at one time my wife reacted to unusual situations in flight in much the same way as the passenger you describe. Learning to fly our first plane herself (with a cfi, not me), she felt the same way after her first time under the hood, and again after her first time spinning the aircraft. Her challenging of perceptions that did not conform to reality led to a change in her perspective, and to eventually becoming a capable (and much appreciated) Bonanza co-pilot. When it comes to flying - especially when it comes to flying - perception is not necessarily reality and one best be able to tell the difference.*

The "challenge" you described is not quite the same as the one addressed by this thread (at least in the minds of most who have contributed so far). The objective of this thread, for most here, has been simply to determine the reality of the events that Russell M. Nelson described in his faith promoting story. If the events did not happen, or could not have reasonably been interpreted by Russell M. Nelson as he described, then he lied. And if he did lie, it was continually and in print, for decades. Anyone in any way connected with the LDS Church, past or present, who has put their faith in Russell M. Nelson and given money to the church he represents, has a right to know if he is prone to having trouble with the truth.

In Russell M. Nelson's "Doors of Death" story there are facts, gray areas, and outright fabrications from whole cloth. Considering the contributions of other pilots on this thread, and being as kind and accommodating as possible to Russell M. Nelson's story:

- Russell M. Nelson could have interpreted a controlled rapid spiral descent as a spiral death dive.
- He could have interpreted the power being pulled back on the left engine during the rapid descent as that engine having failed.
- He could have interpreted the pilot bringing back in power on the left engine to make an approach to Delta Municipal as a miracle re-start.

So much for the gray areas. Had Russell M. Nelson built his story around these reasonably misinterpreted or misunderstood events, few, if any, would have felt that he intentionally lied.

But Russell M. Nelson did not stop there. He continued on, well over the bright line between truth and falsehood.
He had to add an explosion,
- and then an engine fire,
- and then burning oil and fuel on the surface of the airplane,
- and then the airplane engulfed in flames as it plummeted uncontrolled towards the earth and certain death for all on board,
- and finally, miraculously, a disoriented pilot landing in a farmer's field.

We now know for a certainty that none of these latter events happened, and no individual on that aircraft could have reasonably believed that any of them did. And that, to many if not most of us on this thread, is what matters.
_________________________________

* There might be no better example of the consequences of acting based on perception rather than reality in aviation than Air France Flight 447, which was lost over the Atlantic ocean on June 1, 2009, killing all 228 on board, because of ongoing, unwarranted and unchecked pilot misperception.
https://www.cnn.com/2012/07/05/world/eu ... index.html
Last edited by DrW on Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dwight »

I was going to post a link to look at the satellite imagery. Granted a field could be abandoned and I could see it being reclaimed by the desert, but looking at it just doesn’t fit. If you went to the trouble of irrigating farm land you would most likely hesitate to give up on it. I was going to try and dig to confirm it, but Fifth Columnist is better than I could get anyway.

My slightly older cousin had a friend with a pilot’s license so we got to ride from Provo to Heber and back in the mid-90s when I was a teenager. Heber Airport literally has farmland abutting the airport. It was still abundantly clear that it was an airport with a few planes and hangers.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by kairos »

Just wondering if it is possible to determine for example the pilot’s name and the passenger list, get a look at the journal of the “new “ President “Kerr” of Dixie college for the days in question, AP files for the possible reporting although local and regional news outlets seem to be as bare as mother hubbards cupboard on the topic of a small aircraft incident/event, Dantzel Nelson’s wife recalling of a phone call from Rusty that he almost died but was Ok, Nelson’s children recalling of a first person , their dad telling or retelling of the fiery death dive in family home evening, ask Sheri Dew whether Nelson provided her access
To his journals for the biography, delta airport report on the unscheduled landing of the almost death plane, weather report for the day, how did Rusty eventually get to
Dixie college and back to SLC (he might have hitchhiked),
Rusty sending a note of thanx to the pilot and a box of chocolates to the hysterical fellow passenger.
Some of the above answered truthfully could help understand both sides of the story.
Responses will help get the thread to 100 pages WooHoo!
I can’t sleep at night with issues still undecided!
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by master_dc »

this has been an interesting thread to follow over these months. A big thanks to all the research and expertise being shared.

The one area that is triggering for me here and on the MDD board is due to the necessity concede soo many points to make it fit he narrative.
  • a death spiral is more likely a hard banking turn
  • oil and flames engulfing the wing and aircraft is more likely the oil loss from feathering (not sure if i still understand this)
  • the necessity to start the undamaged engine in a hurry to avoid instant death is more likely the pilot eased off on it, did not actually turn it off
  • The only reports discovered about this extremely abnormal flight don't mention any of the juicy details, not one, and that is most likely due to bureaucratic and insider back scratches to avoid the bad marks on the company (or something like that)
  • The most juicy parts of the story are not revealed, by a somewhat public figure, until years after the incident. Others at the time had to of heard about it
  • landing in a farmers field is more likely "it looked like a farmers filed because it was out in the sticks
Why do we always need to bend the meaning to make the church narrative work? I just don't get it.

The crazy thing is, the facts that have been uncovered still make a powerful story. If i was on a small plane that experienced engine fire, and my life flashed before my eyes, it is meaningful and relatable.

If these leaders would actually spend their time mimicking the apostles of old, they would have a life time of real stories. I mean, my mission would give me enough to last a decade of conference talks.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by azflyer »

SUPER LONG - READ TO THE END BEFORE YOU ROAST ME - IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE WHOLE THING, JUST READ #13.

Hey everyone, I've made quite a bit of progress in my efforts to compile the multiple different tellings of this story. So far I've compiled 12 different times this story has been told.

Of those 12 times, 7 times, Nelson either wrote the story (i.e. a book), or he was speaking (i.e. conference talk, youtube video).

There was one instance where an article was written, but the article did not use quotation marks for parts of the story. I'm going to call that story a "paraphrasing".

There were also four instances of Nelson telling the story in Spanish, followed by someone translating it back into English and then paraphrasing what was said.

Lastly, we have Sheri Dew's second hand account.

What I present below is the compiled version of Nelson's 7 times telling the story. I am negating the five other instances as they were not in Nelson's words. The earliest of these tellings occurs in 1979, the latest is 40 years later in 2019. I'm going to assign a "truth" score to each of the 13 separate portions of the story.

1) Type of plane - In all seven instances, he describes flying on a "small airplane", or a "Twin propeller airplane", or a "small commuter airplane".

True - This is consistent with what is in the Civil Aeronautics Board Reports

2) Direction of flight - In two instances, he says he was flying from Salt Lake to St. George. In one instances he says he was flying to the inauguration of a university president to offer the innovcation.

True - This is consistent with what is in the Civil Aeronautics Board Reports

3) Number of passengers - In one instance, he claims he was "a passenger", in another he says there were "about six passengers". In a third, he says there were four passengers.

Close enough - The Civil Aeronautics Board Reports state that there were "3 passengers". If this was a single pilot operation, that would make four people. If this were a two pilot operations, then it would be five people. The Navajo would have max seating for eight. The first statement about the number of people on the plane was made in 2003, 27 years after the incident. I'm not getting hung up on this.

4) Location of "situation" - In two instances, he says they were about half way there. In one of those two instances, he says the pilot stated they were past the "point of no return". He acknowledges that this was a strange thing for the pilot to say.

True - But kind of weird. The "point of no return" comment is obviously an embellishment that he states to dramatize the situation. But the fact that they ended up landing at Delta Airport (not field) per the Civil Aeronautics Board Reports does corroborate that they were about half way.

5) Engine trouble - In all seven instances he is very consistent with what happened to the engine. He phrases it slightly different each time. In one instance he says the "engine exploded". In another he says it burst open and caught on fire. On two occasions, he does say it was the right engine. But across all seven tellings, there is no contradictory information presented (with respect to the other instances).

Oh boy, this is where things get dicey...

Significantly exaggerated - but somewhat plausible-ish - I'm sure most people here will not agree with me. But that's fine. This is subjective, and I'm sharing my opinion. Feel free to disagree. "Fire" and "explosion" and "burst" are all words that are subjective. And it doesn't help that Nelson is making this very dramatic. He's painting a picture that looks like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtMZSyjXQUU

And that is most certainly not what happened. But, based on the failure mode described in the CABR, I think it’s very likely that oil was leaking out of the cylinder. And it’s possible that some of that oil got on a turbo charger, and that there could have been some indications of smoke, or if you really stretch it, there could have been the presence of flames for a short period of time. I think that is the most generous you can be to Nelson.

I think one of the challenges here is that so many people commenting already have an opinion of Nelson. And that makes it difficult to be objective. I posted some details of this situation over on a pilot forum, and asked people what they thought. There were two comments I got back that I thought were interesting.
“A Navajo had something similar happen here not too long ago. The engine lost partial power and was running extremely rough. All of the oil dumped out since the cylinder was coming loose from the crankcase. There is potential for fire if the oil got onto the hot turbocharger on the engine. In the one here it luckily didn't.”
“One man’s explosion is another man’s “engine done come from together”.
One man’s fire is another man’s engine smoke.
One man’s steep spiral is another man’s emergency descent procedure.
Sounds plausible to me, especially if one version is an aviation expert’s and another is a bystander, passenger, or other layperson.”
(quick note - "come from together" is a phrase used on this forum to mean that it "blew up" - it's an inside joke over there.

Now, as Dr. W has pointed out, if there was an engine fire, there should be an NTSB report. And there IS NO NTSB report. But what does the lack of a report mean? That is difficult to say, because we don’t have the report that doesn’t exist. Was there a puff of smoke? Was there a short lived lick of flame? In my personal opinion, that is possible.

6) The side of the plane - In three instances he talks about fuel, oil or "flaming fuel" flowing down the side of the plane. This is the most internally inconsistent information Nelson presents. "Flaming Fuel" = / = an oil leak cascading down the side of the plane.

Dubious - This is the single portion of Nelson's story that is the most internally inconsistent. Was it oil streaking down the side? Or was it flaming fuel. Given the engine's failure mode, I would expect to see oil coming out of somewhere on the right side of the plane. Was it burning and did it engulf the right side of the plane? No.

7) The Propeller - In three instances he describes the propeller being stopped.

True - This is consistent with what is in the Civil Aeronautics Board Reports

8) Death Spiral - In six instances, he described some kind of "death spiral". He uses slightly different verbiage in various tellings, but there is some version of this six times. Four times it's a "spiral", and two times it's just a "dive". I personally don't find these different tellings to troubling if we're only evaluating the internal consistency of the different stories.

True (in Nelson's head) - I'll probably get beat up for this. But again, it's my opinion. Whether the pilot used an emergency descent maneuver or not, I believe Nelson felt like they were in a "death spiral". Nelson says the woman was across the aisle. He also says she was next to the "flames". That would put him on the left side of the plane. Twin engine planes with an engine out will turn in the direction of the good engine. Nelson was sitting on the side of the good engine (this is important for later on).

No matter what kind of turn was made, turns would have been required to get pointed at the airport. Those turns would have happened to the left, and Nelson would have been on the left side of the plane. As the plane turns to the left, if he looks out the window, he'll be looking at the ground.

I ran some numbers and calculated the bank angle for a standard rate turn at 200 knots. It works out to almost exactly 30 degrees. So the plane would have been banked at least 30 degrees (possibly more if pilot was using emergency decent manuever). Thirty degrees might not sound like much, but given the situation, I can definitely see why a non-pilot passenger would feel this way.

9) Extinguishing the flames - In six instances, he states that the dive extinguished the flames. This is very internally consistent.

Misunderstanding / Emelishment - The decent didn't put any flames out. Is it possible that he thinks that what happened? Maybe, but saying this sure makes the story sounds good.

10) Other passengers - In four versions, he discusses other passengers. Twice he says that "other passengers" (note the plural) screamed. On two occasions he refers to a woman that was hysterical. In one instance, he does say that she was on the right side next to the engine and that he was across the aisle from her.

Close enough - I don't find this part terribly important. This is just part of the story. I do think this detail is important because it puts Nelson on the left side of the plane, which I think is important in the "death spiral" portion of the discussion.

11) Going to die - In five instances he states he expected to die. He uses different phrasing, but that point is made in five tellings.

Probably True - The passengers didn't know what was going to happen while they were in the air. It's very likely that all the passengers were contemplating their mortality in those few minutes.

12) The "other" engine - In five instances, he states in one way or another that the second engine was restarted at some point before landing. Again, he is internally consistent in this detail.

Plausible - from a non-pilot perspective - misinterpretation - Slight embellishment This is the single most interesting statement in the entire story to me. I've tried to think through, If I was Nelson, and I wanted to make this story as juicy as possible, what would I do? Well, I'd definitely say I thought I was going to die. And hey, let's throw in the "point of no return" for fun as well. But why would he say this? He's been talking about the right engine the whole time and hasn't said ANYTHING about the left engine. What gives?

I think there are two things that could have happened that explain this. Remember, Nelson is on the left side of the plane, next to the "good" engine. During the decent, power to the "good" engine would have been reduced to idle. As the plane is coming in to land, at some point, the throttle for the good engine would have to be advanced. A non-pilot passenger could interpret this as "restoring power" to the good engine. What is problematic, is that he's using the words "restarting" to describe what happened to the other engine. It most certainly was not restarted.

Another explanation is that if the emergency decent procedure was used, that procedure calls for the power to the good engine to be reduce to idle. As the pilot rolled out of the emergency decent, he would have advanced the throttle. This could make it appear that the engine, that Nelson is staring out his window looking at, was "restored" right as they rolled out of the "death spiral". "Restart" is certainly an embellishment.

13) The landing - In four instances, he talks about the landing. On three occasions he refers to it as just a "safe landing". On one occasions he does say that they landed, "in a field". Nelson never states that it was in a farmer's field. Curiously, he also never states that they landed at an airport. In Shery Dew's version of the story, he landed in a "farmer's" field. Also, the statement about landing in a "field" does show up several times in the Spanish versions after being translated back to English, and then paraphrased.

False - To me, the landing is the single biggest hole in the story. Nelson, in his own words, in this video, at 0:53 states that they landed "out in a field"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMwKxmTLaCs

In the CABR on page 783 it states that they landed at the "closest airport". On page 1090 it states that they landed "at Delta Utah".

At first, this threw me off. Nelson never claimed that they landed at an airport. On page 1090 it states that they landed "at Delta Utah". I couldn't help but think of Alma talking about Jesus being born "at Jerusalem", and laughing to myself. But then, then I found it. Back on page 783, I found the statement that they had landed at the "closest airport".

I really tried to give Nelson the benefit of the doubt here. I've made every effort here to be as kind to him as possible. I've contorted the definitions of words (explosion, fire, fuel, oil, burst) to try and find a possible version of what could have happened that fits his narrative. I was actually fairly impressed that over 40 years, his story stayed fairly consistent.

But they didn't land in a field. (Note, Nelson never claimed it was a farmer's field, that was Sherri Dew) They landed at an airport. I even emailed the Millard County Assessor to see if I could find aerial photographs of the airport from 1976 to see if you could mistake the airport for a field. I was able to find google earth images from the 80's that are kind of grainy. Those didn't help much. But all of this is just a stretch too far. All of the other details are subjective.

1) There could have been a puff of smoke.
2) What is an explosion? An internal combustion engine runs on a series of thousands of controlled explosions.
3) One mans' standard rate descending turn is another man's death spiral.
4) Could advancing the throttle on an engine look like "restarting" an engine?

All of these things are subjective in my mind. They are open to interpretation.

But Delta airport, in 1976, was a thriving airport. The late 70's were the hay-day of aviation. The runway is a mile long and 75 feet wide. IT IS NOT A FIELD.

This is very last point is extremely misleading and a fabrication of a material detail. It is not subjective, it is binary. And this one detail for me, causes me to question all the good faith I gave him on items 1 - 12.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by master_dc »

Wow, thanks for taking the time to type that up. Very good breakdown of the situation.
But they didn't land in a field. (Note, Nelson never claimed it was a farmer's field, that was Sherri Dew)
I understand what you are saying here, especially staying neutral, Dew got those details from someone, and if she didn't, shame on her. I am sure biographers do insert some details, but having probably heard the story multiple times, you would think she would get confirmation from the source about that detail ("What kind of field was it?")

I never really paid attention to Nelson before he was prophet, was never that interesting to me. But man, there is just something about him that is insincere. I heard a story from my mom that when she saw him speak live, in the states, his paused, said he felt the need to say something in another language, and played it up like he didn't really speak that language, and then delivered a near perfect message. A close friend of my mother's was in attendance, and it was in her native tongue, and it really impacted her. I then find out that he has done that multiple times.

Manufactured spirit, lame stories, i just don't get him.

It will ne interesting to see what the next decade looks like. These manufactured stories are going to get easier to sniff out when your history is captured on the internet.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by DrW »

Hey azflyer,

Lots of work there. You sure you're an [insert appropriate non-legal profession - aerospace engineer?] and not an attorney? In any case, you did the research and came up with yeoman's work to put the best possible light on Russell M. Nelson's story, while sticking to the facts. Not a necessarily a very favorable light in my opinion, and there are a few points on which we disagree, as I'm sure you know. Nonetheless, yours is surely an honest attempt at the most favorable view possible of Russell M. Nelson's fable.

Please let us know if someone from the COB calls and offers you a gig as an aviation consultant if this ever gets into the Utah mainstream media. Seriously, though - well done.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Gadianton »

But they didn't land in a field. (Note, Nelson never claimed it was a farmer's field, that was Sherri Dew)
is not true.

check this out and listen to Rusty tell it first hand with dives and spirals, and a knowledge of his certain death. At second 54, he confirms the field landing and the dramatization even shows a field out the window! Lol!.

While I appreciate Dr. W's professional distinctions between spins and spirals, when a layperson is communicating to a lay audience, we can't necessarily rely on the FAA dictionary to tell us what the speaker means. If I type in "death spiral plane" to Youtube, this is one of the first videos that comes up (see the last few seconds):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0PW_tMdBF4

I'd be shocked if this is not what Nelson intended to communicate, and what every TBM is picturing when imagining the story in their minds.

While a rapid controlled descent might be scary, I'd give it only 10% that the pilot didn't communicate the move was a standard procedure and the situation was not dire. Certainly, after the event, he got the full story, yet he never clarifies that his sense of danger was a misunderstanding of the situation or updates what the dive really was vs. what it felt like.

Best case scenario is old Rusty was scared out of his gourd and illogically anticipated his death, which means he was not comforted by his knowledge of the savior, instead, he was pulling a "sweet lemon" to hedge his bets on a situation where there was a chance he might die.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

@:45 you see how a catastrophic engine failure looks on a Piper Navajo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dKTCiG5T1Ig

That oil coming out of the casing could be what Russell M. Nelson saw and exaggerated.

@1:13 the pilot mentions feathering the left engine’s props and that they “have plenty of power here” - probably from the right engine that’s operating normally

@1:53 oil all over the left engine casing

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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

DrW wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 5:59 pm
With regard to "out of control" part, Russell M. Nelson's description of the spiral death dive in more than one of his descriptions left the clear impression that the pilot had lost control of the aircraft and was desperately fighting to restart the left engine, regain control, and save the day.

My main problem upthread with the death spiral dive described Russell M. Nelson was this: with both engines out, as he claimed, the pilot would have been wasting altitude that could have been used to reach an airport (new heading would have been provided by ATC as as a matter of course in response to the declaration of an emergency).
In fact, I count 7 ways in which Nelson paints "certain death" from this experience, and it's the sum of all 7 that is the lie, regardless whether Nelson believes any one of them individually in his mind:

1) the engine explosion (implies deadly emergency)
2) the fire and fiery oil (implies deadly emergency)
3) the spiral, plummeting dive (implies impending crash)
4) the last minute engine restart before crashing (implies impending crash)
5) pilot regained control and pulled up before crashing (implies impending crash)
6) the emergency field landing (implies potential for crash landing)
and
7) the woman screaming hysterically and uncontrollably (serving as a key eyewitness to Nelson's certain death narrative)

Most of (1)-(6) are "vivid" recollections consistent in all of Nelson's retellings, and (7) is present in almost of all of them to support his narrative with a key eyewitness.

(1)-(7) collectively comprise the lie about “certain death” vs truth (illogically scared?). Why even bother? Because otherwise the story is boring. And less effective. That was Dunn’s very motivation too.

ETA found one more, 6 to 7
Last edited by Dr Moore on Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:30 am, edited 7 times in total.
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