Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

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Dr Moore
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

azflyer wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 6:43 am
If you map the flight path, they would have been at least 20 miles south of Delta at the time of the engine roughness / failure.
I don't agree with this. Please see my detailed flight plan right up in the post above this. Here is the link to the flight plan I believe they would have followed in skyvector.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=39.0049561439 ... DTA%20KSGU

Delta VOR is not halfway in miles, but it is the last main marker, and it is, in my opinion, the most likely place to make the 1/2 way announcement. Also, if they were 20 miles south of Delta VOR, they probably would have landed at Fillmore. That would have been the closer airport.
AZ,
Redraw the map with only DTA as a waypoint. The flight path is now virtually a straight line from SLC to SGU, meaning they'd have flown over DTA en route.

Now, you'll see that SLC > DTA is 92 nautical miles and DTA > SGU is 144 nautical miles. Take the difference of 52 nautical miles, divide by 2, and add the resulting 26 nautical miles to the SLC > DTA path and you'll see that the half-way point, or "point of no return" per Nelson's "vivid" memory, is roughly 26 miles south-southwest of Delta airport.

In other words, the pilot's halfway announcement will have been ~26 miles (I said ~20 miles above, but your map is more precise than the Google map I used). Even if the engine failed immediately at half-way and the plane turned 180 degrees around instantly, there would have been 26 miles to slow and descent. At full cruising speed this is ~15 minutes of flying. It may have been a few minutes after half-way, and each minute must be doubled because they flew and had to backtrack for each of those minutes. Anyway, all of this is to say that there was at least 10 minutes and probably more like 15-20 minutes of controlled descent flying before landing at DTA.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

Moksha wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:41 pm
At the MD&D board, they've painted a picture of the Delta airport being indistinguishable from a farmer's field (unpaved runway, crops, and perhaps animals). Was any of that true or was it just apologetics?
I know your comment is partly sarcasm, but there's a real point here about assessing truth telling.

"In a farmer's field" invokes many images, not least of which is the image of another brush with death because making an emergency landing in a farmer's field is no joke. The newspapers of the time (1970s) have a number of front page reports of small planes with failed engines that actually did land in farmer's fields AND flipped over on the landing, killing or injuring passengers.

"At an airport immediately next to a farmer's field" is rightly labeled as a Dunn-ish embellishment, relative to "in a farmer's field" and the MD&D folks who want to nit pick the critics on this point are truly missing the forest for the trees. As I mentioned a few comments above, Nelson found no fewer than 6 ways to underscore the "near death" premise of this flight and it's the sum of those 6 embellishments that turn what might be minor inconsistencies into an actual lie.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

Fifth Columnist wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:32 pm
Moksha wrote:
Sat Aug 07, 2021 7:41 pm
At the MD&D board, they've painted a picture of the Delta airport being indistinguishable from a farmer's field (unpaved runway, crops, and perhaps animals). Was any of that true or was it just apologetics?
I grew up in the Delta area and drove by the airport frequently. The airport is not the equivalent of a farmer's field. In fact, a relative in Delta owned a plane and flew from the airport all the time (I believe this was in the 50s and 60s). I have pictures of him standing by his plane at the airport. I will see if I can find them. I also seem to recall that when the Intermountain Power Project was built they expanded the airport so the corporate jets could land there. However, this likely would have occurred just after Nelson's death spiral event.
Absolutely it may feel like you're standing in a farmer's field. But then again, I think everyone is capable of distinguishing an airstrip in the middle of farm fields from a farmer's field. I hope this apologetic doesn't end up serving as one of the stronger apologetics, or else Nelson's story is in real danger of Dunn-ification as the MD&D board puts it.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by azflyer »

Dr. Moore,

We're speculating about what "half-way" means right now. But it is my opinion, that if they were at the literal half way point (as you suggest), they probably would have diverted to Fillmore airport, as that would have been closer. Fillmore is also right next to the interstate, which makes everything easier. Delta is a little more out in the sticks. Both Runways are about the same size (one mile long x 75' wide).

But I understand that point you're making about "half-way". I think it's reasonable to say that they were on the South side of Delta airport, and were probably somewhere between 10 and 30 miles South of the airport.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by azflyer »

Doc,

Great find on the engine failure video!
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

azflyer wrote:
Sun Aug 08, 2021 9:40 pm
SUPER LONG - READ TO THE END BEFORE YOU ROAST ME - IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE WHOLE THING, JUST READ #13.

(snip)
Hi AZ,
Responding to this post separately from the above, how does your summary compare with mine (from page 80 of this thread)?
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

azflyer wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 12:32 am
Dr. Moore,

We're speculating about what "half-way" means right now. But it is my opinion, that if they were at the literal half way point (as you suggest), they probably would have diverted to Fillmore airport, as that would have been closer. Fillmore is also right next to the interstate, which makes everything easier. Delta is a little more out in the sticks. Both Runways are about the same size (one mile long x 75' wide).

But I understand that point you're making about "half-way". I think it's reasonable to say that they were on the South side of Delta airport, and were probably somewhere between 10 and 30 miles South of the airport.
I see your point. Was Fillmore in operation in 1976? And if they were not at least halfway to SGU as the crow flies, then how do you explain the one and only "vivid" recollection Nelson has of pilot communication with passengers?
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by azflyer »

Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:10 am
I see your point. Was Fillmore in operation in 1976? And if they were not at least halfway to SGU as the crow flies, then how do you explain the one and only "vivid" recollection Nelson has of pilot communication with passengers?
Fillmore, Delta and Nephi airports were all built during ww2 to support the war effort.
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by Dr Moore »

azflyer wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:13 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:10 am
I see your point. Was Fillmore in operation in 1976? And if they were not at least halfway to SGU as the crow flies, then how do you explain the one and only "vivid" recollection Nelson has of pilot communication with passengers?
Fillmore, Delta and Nephi airports were all built during ww2 to support the war effort.
Interesting. Depending on the precise location of the rough engine and failure determination, I can see where it may have been closer to Fillmore vs Delta. I guess it would have depended on other factors, if a close push distance-wise between the two airports?
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Re: Fact Checking Nelson's "Doors Of Death" light aircraft near death experience

Post by kairos »

Perhaps either was a choice for the pilot but Delta may have been more
“familiar” to the pilot or perhaps his airline had services available at Delta rather than Fillmore.
We are talking “rough engine “ not fiery engine.

And Dr Moore - your honorary PHD in small aircraft operations and accident analysis has been approved by the Cassius University faculty and is awaiting DR Scratch’s signature- good work⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️!

k
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