What do the Brethren think of FAIR?

[_Mister Scratch]

One of the best threads I've seen on FAIR in a long time is unfolding as we speak. The OP asks a legit question: What do the Brethren think about the issues raised on FAIR? Many of the topics, after all, deal with controversies, inconsistencies, and seriously problematic things relating to the church. It makes sense that they would have at least an en passant interest in the primary LDS apologetics forum, doesn't it? Not if the bigwigs at the ironically named FAIRboard have anything to say about it.

Here is the OP, from a poster tellingly called, "Kolob":

What do the Bretheren think of this site? Do they frequent it? Do they like or dislike the free thought of this site, do they talk with the proprieters? Does the Churches research department study this site?

Almost immediately, FAIR goes into panic mode, starting with this sarcastic dismissal from ba81:

HaHa! That's a silly questions. Move along people there is nothing to see here. Oh hey Kolob, I was wondering if I could get your full name and date of birth. I'm just working on a project for the Church Resear...I mean I'm working on a research project about church members and names...and birth dates...and...wards...it's for school.

It is interesting indeed how paranoia immediately enters the picture. The most strident defender of the Brethren's non-participation in apologetics, though, is none other than "his highness," the Krispy Kreme King, DCP:

@ Oct 28 2006, 08:25 AM)
What do the Bretheren think of this site? Do they frequent it? Do they like or dislike the free thought of this site, do they talk with the proprieters? Does the Churches research department study this site?

They don't.

No.

Neither, and no.

No. (What "research department"?)

Perhaps Kolob meant to say "very small clipping service." Later, when pressed to provide evidence of how he knows such things, Prof. Peterson once again cops to his status as an interlocutor between the world of apologetics and the Brethren:

From relatively frequent interactions with them on various topics, and from longstanding friendships with several of them. If they're aware of this site, or follow such things, or even have much interest in them, they keep it very carefully concealed.

(emphasis added)

And more of him trying to allay fears that FAIR might be being watched:

There's plenty of research going on at BYU -- on subjects like microbiology, Mesoamerican archaeology, antitrust law, Roman history, Aristotelian ethics, the poetry of Emily Dickinson, sociology, human genetics, Arabic lexicography, American voting patterns, classical Chinese literature, etc. None of this has anything to do with monitoring conversations on the FAIR boards.

No one said anything about "monitoring." I wonder why DCP interpreted it that way? Anyways, in case there was any doubt, the Good Professor settles the issue once and for all of whether or not he is one of the chief liaisons between apologetics and the Brethren:

What do the Bretheren think of this site?

I haven't the foggiest idea. Although, in my interactions with them on a number of topics (including, with a few of them and on rather rare occasions, the topic of organized criticisms of the Church), they have given me absolutely no reason to believe that they even know it exists, it's entirely possible that some proportion of them, if not all of them, have opinions about this board (perhaps even strong ones) that they have disclosed neither to me nor to anyone else of whom I'm aware.

(emphasis added)

Do they frequent it?

Some or all of them may spend considerable time here, between meetings, extensive travel, and their many other responsibilities. I have no reason to believe that any General Authority is even aware of this site's existence, but I have no way of ruling out the possibility that, at any given moment, one or more of those lurking here are General Authorities.

This next bit is especially intriguing, in my opinion:

Do they like or dislike the free thought of this site, do they talk with the proprieters?

It's possible, although I know of utterly not a shred of evidence to suggest it, that some proportion, large or small, of the General Authorities adores the free thought of this site. Of course, it's equally possible, and equally demonstrable, that some or all of the General Authorities fear and loathe the free thought of this site. I'm personally inclined, since I can think of nothing that would so much as hint that any General Authority even knows that the FAIR board exists, to suspect that the General Authorities have no opinion whatever about this message board and its so-called "free thought."

What's weird about DCP's comment is that he doesn't simply say, "No way. The General Authorities fully support and believe in free speech." Instead, he gives us this foggy, convoluted response saying that maybe, just maybe, it's possible that the Brethren disapprove of FAIR? Huh?

Here's yet another instance of an effort to use the "paranoid" red herring, and to dismiss the issue by ridiculing it:

Does the Churches research department study this site?

Although it isn't clear that the Church has a "research department" of the kind implicit here, and although various comments both from General Authorities and from employees at the Church office building lead me to doubt very strongly that any of them know about this message board, it cannot be completely ruled out that an entire staff of Church-employees monitors this site 24/7, aided by a massive mainframe computer entirely dedicated to sifting and analyzing the data they gather. I also cannot absolutely prove that batteries of interception devices, using technology that we cannot even conceive of at the present time, are not directed at this message board from an alien research facility located in the vicinity of a binary star system in the Andromeda galaxy, preparatory to a devastating UFO invasion.

In this next citation, notice how DCP defends his position:

@ Oct 28 2006, 05:44 PM)
I'd be willing to bet that the church does monitor the internet sites related to Mormonism, not just this one.

I'm willing to bet that they don't. I have a basis for my position. Do you have any basis for yours?

Bear in mind that the "basis" for his position is his interaction with the Brethren. Once again, further evidence supporting my theory that DCP receives special treatment on FAIR primarily due to his roles both as a scholar, and perhaps even more so, due to his special relationship with the General Authorities as the key apologetic liaison. "His Highness"'s case isn't helped at all by Will Schryver:

It's very interesting that this topic has been initiated, since I was discussing this very subject last night and this morning with one of my close friends, who just happens to be the son of one of the Twelve. He and his wife came to visit for the weekend. He is aware of my recent interest in and study of issues surrounding the Book of Abraham and the KEP, however, prior to our discussion this morning about the KEP, he had been unaware of the controversy surrounding them. He has in the past visited this site (at my invitation), but found it much less interesting than I do. I asked him if it was his impression that any of the GAs whom he knows have expressed any interest in LDS apologetics. His response was that he wasn't aware of any such interest. They simply don't have the time or the inclination, in his estimation.

Besides, they know Dan has matters well in hand.

(emphasis added)

An excellent rebuttal to DCP's argument by The Dude here:

am skeptical of Dan's categorical assertion that the brethren do not visit this site. I think he has bitten off more than he can chew. There is no way to prove that they are not and have never been to the FAIR message board. The FAIR administrators cannot know the IP addresses of each and every GA, so there is simply no way from the position of data for Dan to make this argument. I hereby take the position that it is a real possibility, and point out that the burden of proof is on Dan to show that they don't -- I don't have to prove anything. In fact, there are so many angles of plausibility that Dan would be wise to reevaluate his initial position.

DCP's response?

@ Oct 29 2006, 06:24 AM)
"Research Information Division of the Correlation Department" I have the phone number if anyone is wants it it's not secret or anything.

I'm well aware of it. Go ahead. Call and ask whether they employ a team of message board monitors. Inquire about the nature of their research.

@ Oct 29 2006, 07:44 AM)
I am skeptical of Dan's categorical assertion that the brethren do not visit this site.

If you can come up with even a shred of actual evidence that they do, I'll be willing to consider the possibility that your skepticism might perhaps be warranted. I have considerable reason to believe that they don't.

@ Oct 29 2006, 07:44 AM)
There is no way to prove that they are not and have never been to the FAIR message board.

There's also no way to prove that Elvis hasn't been reincarnated as a millipede on a planet in an adjacent solar system.

@ Oct 29 2006, 07:44 AM)
I hereby take the position that it is a real possibility, and point out that the burden of proof is on Dan to show that they don't -- I don't have to prove anything. In fact, there are so many angles of plausibility that Dan would be wise to reevaluate his initial position.

The burden of proof is on The Dude to demonstrate that Tiger Woods isn't accompanied on the PGA tour by the invisible and indetectible ghost of Billy the Kid.

All in all, a superb thread, and extremely interesting, in my opinion. A good follow-up question might be: Would FAIR want the Brethren to view the MB? Given the reactions of juliann, DCP, and et. al., I suspect that they kind of hope that their ecclesiastical leaders remain in the dark regarding the goings-on at FAIR. Further, DCP's remarks here should leave little doubt in anyone's mind that he is, essentially, "working for the Church" as an apologist, and that he does indeed function as a kind of liaison between FARMS and the Brethren. His comments elsewhere, such as in an old thread on the SCMC, and in threads dealing with Steve Benson's story about his meeting with Elders Oaks and (I believe) Maxwell, lend further creedence to this hypothesis.

In any case, I felt that the last word ought to be given over to this brilliant bon mot from juliann:

But what is a Mormon message board without a healthy dose of delusions of grandeur laced with paranoia?

Well said, juliann, and I shall carry those words in my heart.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I doubt many of the old farts even know what the internet IS and even less use it enough to be comfortable with it.

Most think of it like Farms. Farms have been around for over 15 years and I would bet that most of the senior brudderen think of Farms as it was back when their brains where still processing information, they probably think that Farms is the same and there are only a select number of members even look at the the Farms material.

I have spoken with many members about my inactivity and NONE have heard of farms or fair. NOT even the bishop.

RfM stats kill the visitation stats of the Fboards. I am sure the COB is more concerned about that site then FAIR.


Now there was a discussion board on the desretbook website that was shutdown over a year ago... I dubbed it the Chapel board as it was just like listening to ward members talk about their lives in TSCC.

[_Mister Scratch]

RfM stats kill the visitation stats of the Fboards. I am sure the COB is more concerned about that site then FAIR.

Yes, I've heard this mentioned before, and wish there was a better way to verify the accuracy of this. The ironically named FAIRboard does indeed get a lot of traffic, but they are far more cagey about releasing actual numbers compared to RfM.

As to whether or not the COB is concerned with RfM, I think it's difficult to say, but there does appear to be a significant about of anecdotal and circustantial evidence that BYU most definitely spies on that board. I say this due to stories that I've read, where students get booted out and/or ex'ed, or both, and due to stuff like Rollo's old signature line about the internet filters at BYU-I.

[_Nortinski]

I am 100% positive (and have rock solid proof) that there are quite a few people in the Church office building in SLC that "monitor" certain "anti-Mormon" web sites. Now, of course, I have no way to prove that it's the idiots in Security or if it's Thomas Monson's personal secretary. But, I do know that on January 18, 2005, the day I went through the temple and obtained a copy of the brand spankin' new Initiatory ordinances that went into effect that day and posted the contents of the new script on my website that afternoon, I had over 150 hits to my site from the IP address that is owned by the Cult and solely operated from the Church office building in SLC.

Now, granted, they look at me as a "security risk" and are afraid that I might go in and blow the place up or something crazy like that. Truth be told, I believe that having a video of the temple endowment online (filmed with a hidden camera) would do MUCH more monetary harm to the Cult than if some idiot blew a hole in the wall of the Celestial room. The Cult needs tithing money in order to survive and grow. The best way to get tithes is to convince people that they can't go to the Celestial Kingdom unless they go to the temple. So, little boys and girls are trained from infancy to work towards the goal of going through the temple.

But...

What if little Davey Deacon and little Henrietta Homemaker go online when they are in Junior High school and see the entire temple endowment ceremony on youtube or on their non-Mormon friends' myspace page? Will they see it and say, "Oh my gosh, it's everything I dreamed it would be. I can't wait to go to the temple!" or will they see the video and say, "Oh my heck! That's totally wacked! I can't believe my parents have built the temple up to be such a beautiful and amazing thing. Those people look like idiots. I want nothing to do with that."

You see, a vast majority of tithes and offerings are given by people who go through the temple. After they go through the first time, they are often "in too deep" to feel like taking a step backwards is even an option. The peer pressure to toe the line is just too much to fight against. But, what if they could see the entire wacked out temple ceremony BEFORE they were fully invested into it? Would they still gladly hand over 10% of their money and sign on the dotted line?

I don't think so. Not all of them at least. At the very least, once the video is widely available, I suspect the conversion numbers are going to take a nose dive.

Nort

[_Ray A]

Farms have been around for over 15 years

FARMS has been in existence for 27 years. It was started by John Welch in 1979.

[_harmony]

I don't think so. Not all of them at least. At the very least, once the video is widely available, I suspect the conversion numbers are going to take a nose dive.

Nort

The only conversion numbers that will take a nosedive will be those with access to the internet. Most of those currently being baptised in third world countries have no internet access and wouldn't know a website if it bit them in the behind.

The people financially supporting the church are virtually all in two groups: BIC with parents who converted only one or two generations ago or BIC of pioneer stock. Although the baptism numbers continue to rise worldwide, you notice no one ever makes any claims about the number of full tithe payers.

[_Polygamy Porter]

I don't think so. Not all of them at least. At the very least, once the video is widely available, I suspect the conversion numbers are going to take a nose dive.

Nort

The only conversion numbers that will take a nosedive will be those with access to the internet. Most of those currently being baptised in third world countries have no internet access and wouldn't know a website if it bit them in the behind.

The people financially supporting the church are virtually all in two groups: BIC with parents who converted only one or two generations ago or BIC of pioneer stock. Although the baptism numbers continue to rise worldwide, you notice no one ever makes any claims about the number of full tithe payers.

BINGO

The best members of the cult come from TBM wombs. Nothing like family to keep you tied down.

Additionally, if you look at the disparaging differences in the amount of money the cult gets from North American members vs. any of the "rapidly growing " areas of spanish decent(a.k.a. blood of Lehi) as well as retention rates there, you can see that the baptisms outside of the white Mormon suburbia serve one purpose, that being to keep the tithes flowing in from white Mormon suburbia. "Gosh Hun, its true! Look at how the kindumb is growing! Let's pay 12%!!"

[_Gazelam]

Although it would be exciteing if Bro. Hinkley were to show up on the message boards and begin answering questions, that is not his purpose. And if he were to show up, what purpose would it serve? How many did Christ convert on the number of occasions that he contended with the Pharasies and Saducees? The brethrens purpose is to teach correct principles and allow the people to govern themselves. A prophet and apostles job is to declare how one finds the Lord. They teach how the Holy Ghost is obtained and maintained. They declare the first principles and ordinances of the gospel at general confrence, you might notice that if oyu want the deeper things of the kingdom declared by the brethren you read the books they publish, or hear the teachings they give at smaller gatherings. I know that Bruce R McConkie would attend firesides as a general authority and and open with "Does anyone have any questions?" and go from there.

All members of the church are invited to gain the same knowledge and obtain the same experiences as any General Authority. A calling to be a Bishop or an Elders Quarum president, or a Sunday School teacher is no different a calling than being asked to be a General Authority, the rewards are the same. It is a demanding calling of service, and its intention is to instruct us in the peaceable things of the kingdom through devotion to the needs of others. It requires that one be dependent on the Holy Ghost and maintain his company to better bless those whom we have received a responsibility over.

If you want to know what a General Authority thinks about the things discussed here or there, do the things that your Lord and Redeemer would have you do to be sanctified enough to obtain the Spirit of the Holy Ghost. For by the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things.

[_Yoda]

LOL!

In any case, I felt that the last word ought to be given over to this brilliant bon mot from juliann:


juliann wrote:
But what is a Mormon message board without a healthy dose of delusions of grandeur laced with paranoia?


Well said, juliann, and I shall carry those words in my heart.

Scratch, this is brilliant! I may use Juliann's quote as my signature! ;)

[_Yoda]

by the way, Scratch, did that thread get deleted? I couldn't find it this morning. What is the title?