Brainwas... er - Teach them Young

[_Polygamy Porter]

I really don't care what you think.

i can't believe you are actually asking this??

You are truly DAFT .

I don't have to or need to be saved.

I feel bad that you are still living under that impression.

What have you done to be saved???

His home teaching?
LOL!

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Probably bugging me with his Freaking home teaching.

I think he came to my door yesterday I did not answer because I do not need to be saved, just drink my alcohol.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Dear Liz

thanks

I am still an official card carrying Mormon if you must know.

Am I practicing believing Mormon HELL NO

Please do not label me an anti an aetheist or anything for that matter.

Of course I have chip on my shoulder, you would to if most of your family told you to F*** OF AND DIE, because you refused to follow them in thier beliefs.

Of course I have had bad run ins especially in UTAH, not so much here because we can aviod them easier here and we have caller ID.

And yes I have heard and seen that UTAH Mormons are very different from other Mormons.

That still does not change the fact that I want nothing to do with any religious organization, does not matter who or what they are.

And I 'm sorry I cannot see how being liberal minded can even be compatible with your Mormon beliefs.
But then again we will see now won't we.

You don't call yourself a feminist do you????

I don't consider any Mormon from any where more normal, because normal has to many meanings behind it.

What do you consider NORMAL if I may ask????

I am pretty sure you and I would not be friends past a certain point, then you would be trying to convert me.
Again I could be wrong about that one as well.

It is your turn now

LIZ

I am waiting for you to answer me back.

Will you please do that???

Coffee

[_Yoda]

LIZ

I am waiting for you to answer me back.

Will you please do that???

Coffee

Hi Coffee!

I've been off the board the last couple of days due to illness so I'm just catching up.

As far as my trying to convert you....yes, I would say you definitely have me all wrong. ;)

I make friends based on who people are, and whether or not we get along. I have more non-member LDS friends than members.

I hate the gossiping which can tend to happen in Church, especially among some of the Relief Society women I have come into contact with. I try to stay in Primary. LOL (I'm currently the Primary pianist)

I chewed out our Relief Society president several years ago because she started gossiping to me about an inactive member on my Visiting Teaching list. I told her that I didn't want to hear it...that yes, I would definitely visit the sister, and helped her with babysitting, etc. because she was working two jobs and recently divorced. We became very good friends, and rarely talked about Church.

I do consider myself a feminist as far as equal rights for equal pay are concerned...and I don't agree with a lot of the cultural condescention that happens between men and women in the Church. I think that Joseph Smith's vision of how women and men held priesthood offices was much different than how things have currently evolved.

I think that the political feminist movement takes things a little too far to the extreme, but again, I think that most reasonable people fall somewhere in the middle on most issues.

I'll write more later. I need to get the kiddles in bed.

Talk with you soon!

Liz

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

Liz

Just in case I was not clear, I am not divorced, I have been married to the same man for almost 29 years.

I am probably closer linked to Gloria Steinman views on feminism and I will always take the extreme view before I will ever fall in the middle, ask my family and they will tell you.
I raised three boys and have had stand my ground to many times, and I want to sent them into world knowing full well what women are and to always treat us with respect and not condescending attitudes.
So I am a political feminist very much so.

See I don't understand how you can endure that type of treatment in the Mormon church????

I could never do that even when I was a stupid teen-ager. I knew that it was wrong and so oppressive.

You say you just as many non-Mormon friends as you do Mormon friends????

Are you seen in public with these non-Mormon friends???
Do your Mormon friends know that that you have non-Mormon friends??
And up to what point are you actually friends with the non-Mormon people???
Coffee

[_Yoda]

Are you seen in public with these non-Mormon friends???
Do your Mormon friends know that that you have non-Mormon friends??
And up to what point are you actually friends with the non-Mormon people???

These are kind of odd questions, but I'll answer. Of course, I'm seen in public with my non-member friends. We go out to lunch, the movies, etc.

Yes, my Mormon friends have met my non-member friends on occasion. My best friend, Linda, who is not a member of the Church, comes over to my house on a regular basis. We're also involved in an online tutoring business. There have been several occasions when one of my Mormon friends, who is a neighbor, has dropped by, and they have been introduced.

As I stated before, I am very close to my non-Mormon friends...probably closer than I am to my Mormon friends as far as being able to confide in them.

Like you, I'm a Mom, I'm married(married for 20 years...so you have me beat by 9..LOL), I work full-time, and am getting ready to go back to school for my Doctorate...so my schedule is pretty tight. I don't have a lot of extra time to socialize, so when I do have a spare moment for lunch, etc., it's normally with the people I'm closest to. In my case, my two closest girlfriends are both non-members.

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

[quote="coffeecat"]Liz

J

See I don't understand how you can endure that type of treatment in the Mormon church????

I could never do that even when I was a stupid teen-ager. I knew that it was wrong and so oppressive.




Yes I know that was a strange question, because my so-called Mormon friends were never friends with me in public.
So good for you and of course you are to busy to socialize..

And are you not condoning the type of condescending behavior you dislike so much by remaining an active member??

I would think you are sending somewhat of a mixed message to those around you, but then again I do not know you.

Joseph Smith had a vision of how women and men held priesthood offices??
Well everything else seems to have followed except this wow
Now I wonder why??
And why in the world do you put up with it???

[_Yoda]

Liz

J

See I don't understand how you can endure that type of treatment in the Mormon church????

I could never do that even when I was a stupid teen-ager. I knew that it was wrong and so oppressive.




Yes I know that was a strange question, because my so-called Mormon friends were never friends with me in public.
So good for you and of course you are to busy to socialize..

And are you not condoning the type of condescending behavior you dislike so much by remaining an active member??

I would think you are sending somewhat of a mixed message to those around you, but then again I do not know you.

Joseph Smith had a vision of how women and men held priesthood offices??
Well everything else seems to have followed except this wow
Now I wonder why??
And why in the world do you put up with it???

My family is very tied to the Church. My husband's uncle is a very prominent GA, and his parents are currently Mission Presidents. My parents and grandparents also have very strong ties to the Church.

I guess, for me, it's about utilizing the good values that the Church/gospel teaches such as doing good to your fellow man, service, family first.....All of the principles that the Church touts and sometimes gets lost in process, I try to honestly incorporate and practice in my own life personally.

I also think there is a lot of BS that goes on in the Church, but that's for another thread. I would be here all night. LOL

Actually, Mr. Scratch asked me a lot of the same questions you are asking me before MD was shut down before. Let me just copy/paste some of my responses to him, and it will probably give you a little more perspective regarding where I'm coming from on some issues:

Hi Mister Scratch! :D

Hi Mister Scratch-

Let me see if I can address a few of your issues:

---You set up your children to be seen as "freaks," and to be ostracized and ridiculed by their non-LDS peers.

I have two teen-aged daughters...ages 14 and 17. They are very well-adjusted, have a variety of friends both in and out of the Church, and are as independent as their mother when it comes for being able to think for themselves. They are neither viewed as "freaks" or ostracized/ridiculed.

---You set up your children to be freighted with the guilt that comes along with heavy indoctrination on chastity, and moral purity.

I think this has more to do with how you parent and communicate with your children than anything the Church, or any other organization dictates. Is teaching your kids chastity a bad thing? I don't think so. Consequences of pre-marital sex in this day and age not only can result in unwanted pregnancies, but disease or death due to AIDS as well. I have also had honest discussions with my kids regarding sex, protection, etc., so they're far from naiive.

You place enormous pressure on your male children to serve a mission.

Again, I think this depends on the family...depends on the parent. My little brother didn't go on a mission. My Dad made it clear that if he chose to go, he would be financially supported, but the decision was left up to him. He finished school instead, which was a perfectly acceptable option.

You offer up implicit affirmation for all sorts of negatives in LDS history, including but not limited to: polygamy, the Mark of Cain Doctrine, MMM, the whitewashing of history, anti-homosexuality, etc. This affirmation comes in the form of church attendance, the paying of tithing, and the sustaining of church leaders.

How so? Many members disagree on these issues but still attend Church and pay tithing. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I fail to see how one has to do with the other here.

You help contribute to a limited intellectual culture that has slogans such as, "When the prophet speaks, the thinking has been done," and "We should never criticize our leaders, even if the criticism is correct."

I've never made either of these statements, and, frankly, only heard them spoken by a few members. I've heard these phrases thrown more around message boards like this one and FAIR. ;)

think that I would find your position much more tenable, LizAnne, if you were a stronger advocate for change on FAIR. You have an opportunity to open people's eyes, and to get them thinking more deeply about the church, but do you take advantage of it? I don't know.... It's just that I've never seen you address any aspect of the church with a critical eye, ala Rollo, or Kevin Graham. Just my 2 cents.

You obviously haven't read any of my comments on polygamy. ;)

I will also add here that now I am no longer in a position to make change on FAIR since I'm the evil Mod traitor! LOL

I hope this gives you a little more perspective as far as where I'm coming from. Yes, you may consider me a coward for not completely removing myself from the Church, but it just really isn't an option for me, and I think that everyone has to choose the path which works best for them.

What I have learned to do is discern things for myself. I accept everyone at face value, and live my life the best way I know how...teaching my kids to do the same.

As far as LDS friends not wanting to be in public with non-LDS friends....I just find that completely weird and sad. I'm sorry you experienced that. I don't think that discrimination on the basis of anything, including and especially religion, is justified, and it certainly is very un-Christ-like. Unfortunately, there are a lot of short-sighted people in the world. All we can really do is associate ourselves with those who aren't that way, and treat people the way we know we should. :)

[_OUT OF MY MISERY]

okay but I still think you are condoning their behavior, you are succumbing to the male domination in your life.
Are you not ????
and you do not need to hide behind the values of the church as to why you stay???

And you know full well that your family on both sides will disown you right???

Liz, I still do not see it.

And chasity is an unrealistic way to raise your children, they will likey be a victim of STD's if you do not properly educate them.

Did your dad pay for your brother;s education???
or was he on his own??
After all how much would the costof mission go towards an education???

Paying tithing does condone that you are agree with what goes on in the Church....

[_Yoda]

and you do not need to hide behind the values of the church as to why you stay

I don't think I'm hiding behind the values of the Church. I simply stated that there are values of the Church that I do share. There are also things that I don't agree with.

And you know full well that your family on both sides will disown you right???

They wouldn't disown me, but it would make for very strained relationships that I'm frankly not emotionally prepared to deal with. If that makes me a coward in your eyes, then so be it.

And chasity is an unrealistic way to raise your children, they will likey be a victim of STD's if you do not properly educate them.

I disagree. I believe that teaching fidelity in loving relationships is an important part of being an adult. Also, if you clearly read my statement above, I made it clear that my kids are not naiive when it comes to practicing safe sex, and are very informed when it comes to the dangers of STD's and how to protect themselves against them. We have had very open discussions about this. Two of my oldest daughters' friends have gotten pregnant during High School and are now raising those children. My daughter is one of the few people who is still a loyal friend to them and makes a point to socialize with them when she can, and I encourage that.

Did your dad pay for your brother;s education???
or was he on his own??
After all how much would the costof mission go towards an education???

I don't exactly follow your line of questioning on this one, but yes, my father paid for my brother's first two years of college. My brother got a scholarship, which paid for the remainder. My Dad simply offered to pay for the mission as well, if my brother had chosen to go on one. He had no problem with my brother choosing to go to school instead.

Paying tithing does condone that you are agree with what goes on in the Church....

I don't apologize for making contributions to the Church. It is part of my life. No, I don't agree with everything that goes on in the Church, but most of what I don't agree with involves the political b***s***. And, frankly, any large organization you are a part of has political b***s***.

What I have had to decide, and, I suppose am still trying to decide, is how to deal with the differences I have. Participating freely on boards such as this one is an outlet for me.

I'm in no way admitting that I have all of the answers.

I admire people on both sides of the aisle who make a stand.

The reason I come to sites like this is to meet intelligent people who have similar concerns and discuss things.