Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

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_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jason Bourne wrote:
Joseph was outside of the jail, having flung himself out the window. You can call it what you want, but I'm sure a case can be made that he was shot while trying to escape. Which is why I have a hard time with anyone who says he died a martyr. Martyrs aren't shot while trying to escape.



Oh come now. It is ridiculous for you to argue that he was shot while trying to escape. Why not argue he was drawing away the fire from the others in the room. You honestly think he needed to sit passively by to be a martyr? Fine. But your comments make it look like Joseph was trying to escape and that is why he got shot.

Nonsense. Your hostility clouds your ability to be rational about things at times.

Jason


No damn it!!! I would have shot them. See my gun!!! Over at the left there? I am Jason Bourne!

Ok, now that that is out of me, of course I would. But that does not mean he was trying to escape like run away before he was shot at. I think Rollo summed it up pretty well.

Jason
_Rollo Tomasi
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Re: Tal Bachman DECIMATES a popular apologetic

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Jason Bourne wrote:Cool story and I am glad you did it.

It probably shows a bit too much of my warped mind. ;)
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Rollo Tomasi
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Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

harmony wrote:... he was not a martyr, he was a prisoner and therefore any movement outside the jail could rationally be understood as an escape attempt no matter who was climbing the steps at the time, he was indeed murdered as he fell/jumped from the window, . while trying to escape his fate.

I still gotta disagree with you on this one. An "escape attempt," in my mind, is planned and initiated by the prisoner -- this one was not, but was simply human survival instinct kicking in, precipitated not by Joseph's desire to be free, but by his desire to live when faced with a horrible situation (I can't imagine what it must be like to be a sitting duck while hundreds of armed men congregate around you for the sole purpose of ending your life). Joseph had been in the jail for at least two days, but he didn't attempt to "escape" until his final moments of life (although he certainly had a much better chance to "escape" before the mob converged on the jail during the afternoon of the 27th); instead, the only time he made any effort to leave his "cell" without proper authorization of the jailer (i.e., "escape attempt") was when armed and hostile men stormed his small room (after blowing his brother away and severely wounding John Taylor, whom Joseph also thought was dead) and hundreds of equally armed and hostile men surrounding the jail outside. If Joseph's flight to the window sill can be characterized as an "escape attempt," then Joseph sure had a horrible sense of timing, don't ya think?
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:I would be the first to agree with you, Jason (about my hostility clouding my judgment sometimes), but that doesn't change the facts: he was not a martyr, he was a prisoner and therefore any movement outside the jail could rationally be understood as an escape attempt no matter who was climbing the steps at the time, he was indeed murdered as he fell/jumped from the window, . while trying to escape his fate.


Wrong. He was a martyr. Plain and simple.

Jason
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

Jason Bourne wrote:
harmony wrote:I would be the first to agree with you, Jason (about my hostility clouding my judgment sometimes), but that doesn't change the facts: he was not a martyr, he was a prisoner and therefore any movement outside the jail could rationally be understood as an escape attempt no matter who was climbing the steps at the time, he was indeed murdered as he fell/jumped from the window, . while trying to escape his fate.


Wrong. He was a martyr. Plain and simple.

Jason


Wrong. He was not a martyr. Plain and simple. He was murdered, but he wasn't a martyr.

See? I can do it too. Now... would you care to say why you think he was a martyr and I'll tell you why I think he wasn't?
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

Okay I am like really really confused.

Was Joseph Smith a martyr or not????

Has anyone actually looked up the meaning or should I do it?

again are we getting get up in the semantics of the word????

Which is it you smart people???
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions. An example is the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. Christian martyrs sometimes decline to defend themselves at all, in what they see as an imitation of Jesus' willing sacrifice.

This is from WIKIPEDIA the above thing here LOOK UP
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

coffeecat wrote:In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions. An example is the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. Christian martyrs sometimes decline to defend themselves at all, in what they see as an imitation of Jesus' willing sacrifice.

This is from WIKIPEDIA the above thing here LOOK UP


Well, in that case, Joseph wasn't a martyr. He certainly wasn't innocent, it can be argued that he was put to death because of his political aspirations rather than his religion, and he tried to defend himself. He was murdered; he wasn't martyred.
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

harmony wrote:
coffeecat wrote:In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions. An example is the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. Christian martyrs sometimes decline to defend themselves at all, in what they see as an imitation of Jesus' willing sacrifice.

This is from WIKIPEDIA the above thing here LOOK UP


Well, in that case, Joseph wasn't a martyr. He certainly wasn't innocent, it can be argued that he was put to death because of his political aspirations rather than his religion, and he tried to defend himself. He was murdered; he wasn't martyred.



He may not have been innocent of some things but was he guilty of something that required death? So what that he tried to defend himself. Must a martyr be passive? He went off to Carthage, he knew he would likely be killed, and he was killed, by a mob in innocense of any crime requiring such a punishment. You simply are incorrect Harmony.

Jason
_Nortinski
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Post by _Nortinski »

Jason Bourne wrote:
harmony wrote:
coffeecat wrote:In the Christian context, a martyr is an innocent person who, without seeking death (suicide being seen as sinful), is murdered or put to death for his or her religious faith or convictions. An example is the persecution of early Christians in the Roman Empire. Christian martyrs sometimes decline to defend themselves at all, in what they see as an imitation of Jesus' willing sacrifice.

This is from WIKIPEDIA the above thing here LOOK UP


Well, in that case, Joseph wasn't a martyr. He certainly wasn't innocent, it can be argued that he was put to death because of his political aspirations rather than his religion, and he tried to defend himself. He was murdered; he wasn't martyred.



He may not have been innocent of some things but was he guilty of something that required death? So what that he tried to defend himself. Must a martyr be passive? He went off to Carthage, he knew he would likely be killed, and he was killed, by a mob in innocense of any crime requiring such a punishment. You simply are incorrect Harmony.

Jason


"Like a lamb to the slaughter"? I think not. If lambs were armed like Joey Smith there would be a lot fewer wool sweaters in the world.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me
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