Ted Haggard's Hypocrisy.

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_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

harmony wrote:
This kind of duplicity is a cancer, and if it is revealed that he has really been doing this on a monthly basis for three years, I don't know how Americans can continue to trust Evangelical leaders. You'd be forever wondering what they were really up to.


Can we really blame the anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons who say the same charge can be leveled at Joseph Smith? He lied from the pulpit and in the press, repeated denied having more than one wife, even while at the same time, he was married to dozens of women. How could anyone trust him after that? (and remember, the church says Fanny was his first plural wife, and that was 1831. So everything he did after that is suspect, because he was hiding his sins?)


None of the witnesses supported him in this. Oliver Cowdery spoke his mind and lost his membership in the church partly because of this. David Whitmer in his Address To All Believers in Christ considered Joseph a fallen prophet. In fact, polygamy led to Joseph Smith's death. I can't think of any doctrine more divisive in Mormon history than polygamy, and it was in fact the church leaders' lies about polygamy, detailed in D. Michael Quinn's Dialogue article in 1985 that sent me inactive for three months. Polygamy and the lies surrounding it, and any lies, have always been a serious source of disturbance. Look at how many people were affected by Paul Dunn (I wasn't, because I never thought much of his stories in the first place, and didn't put him on a pedestal). I said that Haggard's good work was in helping the poor and his opposition to racism. He no doubt did good work. I think the record of the LDS church presidents throughout the last century doesn't even come close to what Haggard is now accused of, and if an LDS church president did something like this there would be mass apostasy, that's my guess. They are still "only" leading 12 million people, and more than half have already left the church. Haggard was the leader of 30 million Evangelicals, and an influence on George Bush and US politics in general. I see few comparisons.

In regard to "everything being suspect", I certainly suspect polygamy came from Joseph's mind, not God, and I long ago lost my faith in church leaders as "infallible guides" or even "fallible guides", and ceased putting any trust in them in that regard. I do my own thinking and don't believe what they say necessarily comes from God. From my point of view everything should be questioned.

I don't blame anti or exMormons for losing faith, at all. What I have blamed some for is the way they have attacked the church incessantly, and some even seeking its destruction, or wanting it to fall, or getting revenge on the church, and the constant bickering and pettiness. If I was an Evangelical I wouldn't even want to show hatred to Mr. Haggard. I would just walk away and have nothing more to do with him or the movement, because he is going to have enough trouble just getting his life back on track. But what he did, if the accusations prove true, should be a frequently repeated lesson to others, just like how Baker and Swaggart are. This may be one time too many for most to handle.

PS: If Fanny was where Joseph first transgressed, in 1831 (but I believe it was in fact 1833 at the earliest), indeed all of the revelations after that could be suspect.
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

This just came out in a Google news update:

COLORADO SPRINGS, Colo. — The Rev. Ted Haggard agreed to resign as leader of the New Life Church Saturday after its independent investigative board recommended removal, saying he was guilty "of sexually immoral conduct."

"We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard," a statement from the church said. "Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct."


For the full report and other links: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,227568,00.html

At least the NLC investigative board acted quickly, and that's to their credit.

The full statement from the investigative board:

The following is a statement released on Saturday by the New Life Church of Colorado Springs, Colorado, about the resignation of the Rev. Ted Haggard:

We, the Overseer Board of New Life Church, have concluded our deliberations concerning the moral failings of Pastor Ted Haggard. Our investigation and Pastor Haggard's public statements have proven without a doubt that he has committed sexually immoral conduct.

The language of our church bylaws state that as Overseers we must decide in cases where the Senior Pastor has "demonstrated immoral conduct" whether we must "remove the pastor from his position or to discipline him in any way they deem necessary."

In consultation with leading evangelicals and experts familiar with the type of behavior Pastor Haggard has demonstrated, we have decided that the most positive and productive direction for our church is his dismissal and removal. In addition, the Overseers will continue to explore the depth of Pastor Haggard's offense so that a plan of healing and restoration can begin.

Pastor Haggard and his wife have been informed of this decision. They have agreed as well that he should be dismissed and that a new pastor for New Life Church should be selected according to the rules of replacement in the bylaws.
_Nortinski
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Post by _Nortinski »

Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort


Mormonism has been discussed in the thread.
_Nortinski
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Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:38 am

Post by _Nortinski »

Jersey Girl wrote:Hello Ray,

I was hoping not to become involved in a discussion like this on the internet but I feel compelled to do so. Beginning with a few opening comments for clarity.

1. Ted is involved in two associations if you will. (1) National Association of Evangelicals with 30 million members and (2) Senior Pastor of New Life Church with congregation of approximately 14,000 members. New Life has affiliated with it, the World Prayer Center which is located adjacent to the church itself. New Life is what one would describe as a mega church. Just wanting to add clarity there.

2. He immediately stepped down from both positions which I feel was appropriate to do.

3. Ted is nothing at all like Swaggart. You are not going to see Ted down on his knees in a public forum, slobbering and whining before the congregation. He is not prone to that type of theatrics. He is not an actor. So far as spirit led Pastors go...Ted is the real thing.

4. New Life, as well as Ted, have enjoyed a good reputation in the community and a good relationship with the community at large.

Here are a few items that cause me concern...holes in the stories on both sides.


Item #1:

Mike claims that Ted came to him for sex and that Mike did not provide Ted with meth. Mike claims that he only gave Ted a "connection" for buying meth.

Mike's voice mail recordings indicate that Ted (using the name Art - Arthur is Ted's middle name) was setting up a transaction with Mike and not a 3rd party.

Issue #2:

In his very first public statement on air, Ted denied knowing Mike.
In his second public statement on air, Ted admitted knowing Mike and calling Mike for meth. He denies a sexual relationship with Mike.


Mike (the accuser) did not pass a polygraph when it came to responses about a sexual relationship with Ted.

Issue #3:

Ted claims that he was referred to Mike for a massage during a stay at one of the Denver hotel/motels.

Mike denies that he could have been a referral from a hotel/motel and only (previously) advertised on the internet as a male escort.

I hope that people will take into consideration, inconsistencies on the part of both Mike and Ted, and avoid searching out blood in the water as you appeared to do in your opening post. You do not have your ducks in a row in your OP.

Jersey Girl



Jersey Girl,

someone recently called me a racist AND a homophobe on an internet forum a while back and, to put it mildly, I FLIPPED OUT. I went ape **** on my accuser. And that's all because they said I was racist and hated gays or was afraid of them. Whatever.

Now, if I was a minister and made crazy money doing so and I had a wife and kids and such and some guy came out adn said I was doing meth with him as he pounded me in the ass, I think it's safe to say my response would not be dignified. I would be mad as hell and sue the S.O.B. for every cent he had. That would be after I went and punched him in the face. The arrest for assault would so be worth it.

I would cheerfully submit to a hair follicle test.

This "minister" simply didn't behave in a manner that one would expect for a guy that was just accused of some stuff that he didn't do.

He's lying. He did the meth and he had gay sex with the guy. I suspect that eventually he might even go to jail for stealing church funds to pay for his meth clouded gay sex. If he does, he'll be able to get all the free gay sex he wants. Not much meth though.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me
_Nortinski
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Post by _Nortinski »

Ray A wrote:
Nortinski wrote:Sorry for asking but what does this guy have to do with Mormonism? This is a "Mormon discussions" forum. This belongs in the Off-Topic forum which is: "The forum to discuss politics, hobbies, or anything else non-LDS related."

This guy is a moron but he's NOT a Mormon.

Nort


Mormonism has been discussed in the thread.


Not in your original post it wasn't. Others, who seem to understand the purpose of this forum, have turned it that direction.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:
Not in your original post it wasn't. Others, who seem to understand the purpose of this forum, have turned it that direction.

Nort


There are several other threads not on Mormonism and not in off-topic. Check them out. If you don't like this discussion, then go to another thread.
_Nortinski
_Emeritus
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:38 am

Post by _Nortinski »

Ray A wrote:
Nortinski wrote:
Not in your original post it wasn't. Others, who seem to understand the purpose of this forum, have turned it that direction.

Nort


There are several other threads not on Mormonism and not in off-topic. Check them out. If you don't like this discussion, then go to another thread.


And how many of these "off-topic" threads were started by me? None. Because I have a basic understanding of the rules here. Did you miss them when you signed up?

Ray, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm certainly not Admin here. I just like to point things like this out before it turns into a free-for-all around here. This is a forum for Mormon related things. This meth head turd has nothing to do with the Mormon cult.

Nort
The truth is a lot easier to see when you stop assuming you already have it. - Me
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Nortinski wrote:And how many of these "off-topic" threads were started by me? None. Because I have a basic understanding of the rules here. Did you miss them when you signed up?


No Nort, I didn't miss them at all. In fact I keep reading even the additions, like this one:

SPECIAL RULES FOR THE TERRESTRIAL FORUM ONLY:

* No hardcore swearing. Words such as "damn," "ass," or "bitch" are acceptable (though not exactly ideal by any means), but if you wish to use the "F" word or the "S" word, please do so in the Telestial Forum only.


In other words you should avoid statements like this:

Jersey Girl,

someone recently called me a racist AND a homophobe on an internet forum a while back and, to put it mildly, I FLIPPED OUT. I went ape crap on my accuser.


Nort wrote:


Ray, I'm not trying to be an ass. I'm certainly not Admin here. I just like to point things like this out before it turns into a free-for-all around here. This is a forum for Mormon related things. This meth head turd has nothing to do with the Mormon cult.

Nort


Can you tell me where in any of the rules it says to not discuss anything but Mormonism? Shades might want to rectify this, or clarify this. When I began this thread I knew, inevitably, that the subject of Mormonism would arise. The Evangelicals have had a lot to say about Mormonism. Mitt Romney has to dialogue with them. The Evangelicals have written a lot about Mormonism, in fact many Mormon critics appear to have been Evangelicals. So I was waiting for someone to make the connection to Mormonism, which harmony did.

Now tell me, is discussing the personality traits, obsessively, of FAIRboard participants about Mormonism?? Do we have to know the details of how a FAIRboard partipicant wipes their ass? Is that about Mormonism? Is whether DCP a well known scholar about Mormonism, or about DCP?

So be my guest, make some more connections about Evangelicals and Mormons, like harmony did.
Last edited by _Ray A on Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
_harmony
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Post by _harmony »

None of the witnesses supported him in this. Oliver Cowdery spoke his mind and lost his membership in the church partly because of this. David Whitmer in his Address To All Believers in Christ considered Joseph a fallen prophet. In fact, polygamy led to Joseph Smith's death. I can't think of any doctrine more divisive in Mormon history than polygamy, and it was in fact the church leaders' lies about polygamy, detailed in D. Michael Quinn's Dialogue article in 1985 that sent me inactive for three months. Polygamy and the lies surrounding it, and any lies, have always been a serious source of disturbance.


And yet, he continued to lie about it, even in the face of witnesses against him, until the day he died. And still today he is idolized, revered, almost worshipped.

Look at how many people were affected by Paul Dunn (I wasn't, because I never thought much of his stories in the first place, and didn't put him on a pedestal). I said that Haggard's good work was in helping the poor and his opposition to racism. He no doubt did good work. I think the record of the LDS church presidents throughout the last century doesn't even come close to what Haggard is now accused of, and if an LDS church president did something like this there would be mass apostasy, that's my guess.


I guess the early Saints wanted to believe so much, and invested so much into the religion, leaving family, friends, neighbors to follow Joseph, they were willing to listen to his lies.

They are still "only" leading 12 million people, and more than half have already left the church. Haggard was the leader of 30 million Evangelicals, and an influence on George Bush and US politics in general. I see few comparisons.


I see a lot of comparisons. I guess that's why we don't walk around in the same skin.
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