Ted Haggard's Hypocrisy.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:55 pm

Thanks for the anecdotal account, Jersey Girl. Let's see what he eventually does. I'll stick my neck out and say he will eventually do a "Swaggart".

Post by **_OUT OF MY MISERY** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:56 pm

Does this not come down to the basic pure essence of life??

Be true to to your soul and do no harm.

there is no doubt that he did good works and helped many others along the way.

does not matter what he does behind closed doors.

well it did when he did these things but....

Will losing Ted's spark hurt us all???

yes it will

My prays are with him and his family right now and I pray that all will work out and that the press will back off this story so they can all HEAL

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:10 pm

Here is what another minister had to say: http://www.earnedmedia.org/sbm1103.htm

"As an evangelical pastor myself now of a small new church - Heavenly Hope Christian Church - I can related to Rev. Haggard, yet my story is EXACTLY the opposite.

"I WAS gay for over 11 years, dated two male prostitutes from New York City and was a cocaine dealer in Connecticut back in the 1980's -- until Jesus changed my life," said Stephen.

"Today, my life is totally different. I am no longer gay. I'm happily married for over 13 years to my beautiful wife Irene, and I'm the father of two little children - a boy and a girl. I am also an evangelical minister, a pastor of a brand new, small Bible church in Connecticut, Heavenly Hope Christian Church.

"If these allegations are true about Rev. Haggard - America's Top Evangelical Christian - I am completely disgusted and dismayed. After being in major Christian circles for many years, the hypocrisy that I have found and personally seen in main stream Christianity is unfortunate and heartbreaking.

"I understand Rev. Haggard is innocent until proven guilty. However, seeing the reports that I have - along with millions of other Americans - this is a time we need to pray. The Bible says, 'Judgment begins in the house of God'," said Bennett.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:35 pm

For anyone who missed the Richard Dawkins interview with Ted Haggard, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE

Get your popcorn ready.

Post by **_Jersey Girl** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:36 pm

Ray A wrote:For anyone who missed the Richard Dawkins interview with Ted Haggard, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE

Get your popcorn ready.

I saw this video, Ray. What is your impression of Ted?

Post by **_justthinking55** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:56 pm

I think there is a bit of schaude freude on your part RayA. Bill Clinton after his fall was invited to Willow Creek church (another mega evangelical church) where he spoke and was asked about his well known fall. He is actually in some kind of counselling relationship with well known evangelical Dr Tony Campolo, someone to whom he was accountable. Bill and Hilary were churchgoers. Again many evangelicals were more interested in redemption rather than sniggering or saying "what a hypercrit you are"
I asked an Anglican pastor yesterday when discussing this issue, why is it men do these crazy things that can wreck their careers and family lives? He said something that men can compartmelize their brains so they shut out any warning messages. When King David was perving on Bethsheba was he thinking of the consequences or was he just focused on her?
So RayA I hope he does not do a "Swaggert" and fulfill your cynical expectations but gets into some good counselling both spiritual and emotional and his family are also helped through their struggles this time

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:59 pm

Jersey Girl wrote:I saw this video, Ray. What is your impression of Ted?

Well he accused Dawkins of "intellectual arrogance", but my impression was of his "spiritual arrogance". He had a menacing look at one stage of the video, as if he wanted to thump Dawkins, and to me that was totally creepy. Other than that he seems like a charismatic person. Of course I can't judge as well as you can since you've met him. But I wondered, when I first saw the video, if he was up to some kind of mischief in his private life because I have a natural tendency to think like this after the line of Evangelists who have previously been exposed. I think charismatic religious figures like this tend to have a high sexual drive, and that maybe part of what drives them religiously as well. I was not impressed with his "science" at all, and I think these ideas are just another part of their beliefs and have nothing at all to do with science. Overall I saw him as an intimidating person. Dawkins was clearly ruffled at one stage. I think he can exert the spiritual power to captivate his followers, but at the same time be very authoritarian. I noted that he's against gay marriage, but okay with gay civil unions, but I read his outspoken words against "homosexual acts" and where people will go for engaging in them, a place that begins with the letter H. This kind of duplicity is a cancer, and if it is revealed that he has really been doing this on a monthly basis for three years, I don't know how Americans can continue to trust Evangelical leaders. You'd be forever wondering what they were really up to.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:03 pm

justthinking55 wrote:I think there is a bit of schaude freude on your part RayA. Bill Clinton after his fall was invited to Willow Creek church (another mega evangelical church) where he spoke and was asked about his well known fall. He is actually in some kind of counselling relationship with well known evangelical Dr Tony Campolo, someone to whom he was accountable. Bill and Hilary were churchgoers. Again many evangelicals were more interested in redemption rather than sniggering or saying "what a hypercrit you are"
I asked an Anglican pastor yesterday when discussing this issue, why is it men do these crazy things that can wreck their careers and family lives? He said something that men can compartmelize their brains so they shut out any warning messages. When King David was perving on Bethsheba was he thinking of the consequences or was he just focused on her?
So RayA I hope he does not do a "Swaggert" and fulfill your cynical expectations but gets into some good counselling both spiritual and emotional and his family are also helped through their struggles this time

Are you concerned about his recovery, or the thousands of people he has betrayed? How many are now going to walk away not only from religion, but their belief in God as well? I would give an arm and a leg to have seen Dawkins' face when he heard about this. His book sales are now going to treble. If he was a generous man he'd give Haggard some of his royalties.

_Ray A · Post by **_Ray A** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:21 pm

Justthinking55, consider this:

Why the Haggard Scandal Could Hurt Evangelical Turnout

David Kuo says the Ted Haggard scandal and its fallout shows why, as he makes clear in his bestselling book, it is so dangerous to mix faith and politics

By NATHAN THORNBURGH

David Kuo, the former number two at the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives in the first Bush White House, is camped out on the NYT bestsellers list with his book, Tempting Faith, about the dangers of mixing politics and evangelicals. He says he met Ted Haggard only a few times, but says that the episode has saddened him nonetheless, especially the headline-grabbing fallout of Haggard's admissions.

"At the end of the day, this comes down to bringing Jesus into politics," he says. "Right now, it's not Ted Haggard on trial. It's Jesus. This is about the God he represents. When you make yourself a public figure and you fall, you bring the perception of your God with you."

"Jim Dobson's response was particularly telling," Kuo says of leading evangelical James Dobson. "He basically blamed the controversy on gays and Democrats. When evangelical leaders can't see beyond Tuesday on any question, what on earth is happening?"

Kuo says that the New Life Church was the starting place of many evangelical pastors who fanned out across the country, and Haggard was their mentor. Kuo's own church in the DC suburbs is led by former Haggard acolytes. This interconnectedness of so many congregations, along with Haggard's recently political bent, both amplify the effect of the scandal.

"The evangelical obsession with homosexuality makes this especially ironic. For many evangelical leaders, anything related to homosexuality is this special, dark sin. But that's not what the Bible says," says Kuo. "Really it's a sin like gossiping to your neighbor. Jesus doesn't even mention it at all."

Kuo also says it's important to remember that this is not just a scandal or a news story, but a moment of deep pain for Haggard's congregants. "Lost in all of this are thousands of people in Colorado Springs who are desperately hurting," he says.

Politically, Kuo sees a potential to reduce the evangelical vote on Tuesday. "I think the significance of the Haggard thing is this building case against evangelical involvement in politics. Christians are smart," he says. "They can see what influence politics is having."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 08,00.html

Post by **_harmony** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:40 pm

This kind of duplicity is a cancer, and if it is revealed that he has really been doing this on a monthly basis for three years, I don't know how Americans can continue to trust Evangelical leaders. You'd be forever wondering what they were really up to.

Can we really blame the anti-Mormons and ex-Mormons who say the same charge can be leveled at Joseph Smith? He lied from the pulpit and in the press, repeated denied having more than one wife, even while at the same time, he was married to dozens of women. How could anyone trust him after that? (and remember, the church says Fanny was his first plural wife, and that was 1831. So everything he did after that is suspect, because he was hiding his sins?)