Joseph Smith and Presentism: Another Lame Defense Argument

[_Polygamy Porter]

Hi Tal Bachman,

You wrote:

More to the point - EVEN IF it was "normal" for a 39 year old man to marry a 14 year old girl in 1843, which it absolutely was not, as any source on marital stats of the time will confirm for you (why not do some research yourself?), the more relevant point is that it was considered completely disgusting for, as I said, an already married "minister of the gospel" to lie to his wife and start secretly "marrying"/having sex with a bunch of other females, many of whom were ALREADY MARRIED to, and living with, their legal husbands, and end up nailing a bunch of the teenagers in his congregations.

I want to make just a minor correction here; Joseph Smith was 37 years old when he got married to 14 year-old Helen Mar Kimball, however it is still pretty disgusting. Joseph Smith of course was already a married man. The most disgusting Plural marriage of Joseph Smith in my opinion was that of himself to Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs. Joseph Smith married Zina when she was a newly wed, 15 years younger than Joseph Smith was, and she was about six months pregnant with her newly and legally husband’s baby Henry Jacobs. Then after Joseph Smith got killed, Zina ended up getting married to Brigham Young, who was 19 years older than she was. This is what really got me to start to lose my testimony of Joseph Smith and BY as holy Prophets of God. Anyway Tal, I do very much agree with the main Point of your Thread here. Have a good-day!

This story is one of the saddest tales of the pural marriage saga.

Jason

Jason,

Are you impling that you BELIEVE this?

If so, how do you feel about it and how has it affected your belief in Mormonism as a divine church and Joseph Smith as a divine prophet?

[_rcrocket]

"according to Orson Pratt's wife Sarah"

Oh. Such a wonderful source of truth and fairness. I should just roll over with resignation when you quote from her.

I don't think I have ever heard of the word "presentism" before.

But, suppose it is true that polygamy is a reasonable proposition. And why not? Justification is easily found in the Old Testament as well as in principles of evolutionary biology. Exactly what is the "standard" you apply which tells me that it is wrong?

That it is illegal? Since when does lex loci prescribe morality?

Then, there is the criticism you level against the age of marriage. In Joseph Smith's day, it wasn't illegal to marry a 14-year-old. Under the reasoning you advance that lex loci defines morality, then couldn't I say that there is no moral proscription against marrying a 14-year-old?

I don't buy the notion that it is a shocking concept that a man in his 20s would marry a 14-year-old in the early 19th century. Nobody seemed shocked with this concept in Dostoevsky's Adolescent, a late 19th century work.

P

[_harmony]

I don't think the woman of mere anecdotal substance has a leg upon which to stand.

And you contribute what? Not even that? no arugment, no opinion, no evidence of a life lived at all? Geez, P... at least I contribute something. You're the king of the snide one-liner, contributing nothing, whining and complaining that people even want to have discussions.

[_Polygamy Porter]

"according to Orson Pratt's wife Sarah"

Oh. Such a wonderful source of truth and fairness. I should just roll over with resignation when you quote from her.

I don't think I have ever heard of the word "presentism" before.

But, suppose it is true that polygamy is a reasonable proposition. And why not? Justification is easily found in the Old Testament as well as in principles of evolutionary biology. Exactly what is the "standard" you apply which tells me that it is wrong?

That it is illegal? Since when does lex loci prescribe morality?

Then, there is the criticism you level against the age of marriage. In Joseph Smith's day, it wasn't illegal to marry a 14-year-old. Under the reasoning you advance that lex loci defines morality, then couldn't I say that there is no moral proscription against marrying a 14-year-old?

I don't buy the notion that it is a shocking concept that a man in his 20s would marry a 14-year-old in the early 19th century. Nobody seemed shocked with this concept in Dostoevsky's Adolescent, a late 19th century work.

P

Fine.

Can we teach the LDS youth that Joseph Smith was doing such a thing?

I bet the men would not fall asleep in EQ and HP if they discussed Joseph Smith having sex with young girls

We could have this guy teach the class: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWhFsDk7L4E

I was raise Mormon just north of SLC and NEVER knew that Joseph Smith was a polygamist, until I Googled "horses and the Book of Mormon" about 2.5 years ago for my doubting brother in law.

My point is, as a child, had I been taught all of the wierd ass s*** that I discovered two years ago, I'd probably still be a member. Because it would not be bizarre to my adult mind.

Not even my wifes 88 year old GRANNY knew about the Joseph Smith polygamy and she has been a member her entire life!

The more TSCC hides the meat from their new members and youth, the more rotten and festering it will be when they finally get a wiff of the stench as an adult. It only took a few day of violent vomiting and blacking out from mental dry heaving after I first smelled the stench. I like Nort, am now on a quiet crusade to both waft the stench to current members and reveal it to non members to keep them from ever being unwittingly sucked into the Mormon cult under the facade of families... So far I have helped my two RM brother OUT and their wife and children. My wife is just about there as well. My kids are already following me. I cannot even count the number of times I have told Mormon truth to non members... the guys really like the temple stuff and I teach them the secret masonic handshakes to give when the pesky missionaries come by.

This whole plan concocted 40-50 years ago to start masking the real history is now back firing.

[_Ray A]

What I'd like to know is how Tal draws so many firm conclusions in so short a time. According to Wiki:

Bachman currently lives in Victoria, British Columbia. In the early 2000s he came to reverse his views of Mormonism and has since left the LDS church and is actively critical of its leaders.

The thing I don't understand is how all this "stupidity" which a knave with half a brain can work out took so long to strike Tal. The derogatory comments about leaders and the absolute stupidity of Mormons who continue to either attend, or believe, is lambasted to kingdom come. After 40-plus years of studying Mormonism I'm yet to hear someone like Jan Shipps firmly declare Mormonism a fraud. Is Mormonism a fraud, Tal? Which scholars have said so? D. Michael Quinn? Robert N. Bellah? David Winston? Abraham Kaplan? Jacob Milgrom? David Noel Freedman? W.D. Davies? James H. Charlesworth? Krister Stendahl? Edmond LaB. Cherbonnier? John Dillenberger? Ernst Benz? Thomas O'Dea? Hans Kung? In fact, I haven't even heard Michael Coe declare it a fraud.

Sounds to me like Tal took over the role of the Mighty Steve Benson on RFM. Famous shit-stirrers. "I was a Mormon all my life and now I want to enlighten you!!" Where's old Benno these days anyway, retired from his pathetic attacks on his family? Tired of betraying his grandfather? Tired of exposing personal correspondence like a true traitor? Tired of his lies about Oaks and Maxwell? His one-sided version on RFM, to the adoring fans and accolades, clapping and cheering. Tell Benson I think he's an arsehole.

I hope you don't go that low. Haven't seen it, and hope I never will. Oh, are you going to show us that email you sent asking if DCP was a well known scholar? Can I see the email you sent please? I'd like to know how you phrased the questions. Just curious.

[_rcrocket]

Fine.

Can we teach the LDS youth that Joseph Smith was doing such a thing?

I take it you are incapable of responding to any of my points.

I learned about Joseph Smith and his wives from my mother's knee before I was twelve, and then in my first year of seminary as a high school freshman. I guess it helped that growing up I had dozens of half-cousins.

And, plus, I read books.

I'm glad you have left the church.
P

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I was invited over here by the illustrious Dr. Shades to discuss Joseph Smith and (gag) "presentism"

Great to have you here, Tal! I've always enjoyed your posts (and music). Welcome!

[_Rollo Tomasi]

In Joseph Smith's day, it wasn't illegal to marry a 14-year-old.

It was if he was already married.

I don't buy the notion that it is a shocking concept that a man in his 20s would marry a 14-year-old in the early 19th century.

Joseph was 37 (just 4 years younger than Heber Kimball), and Helen was 14. What made it even worse: (1) Joseph was already married to several women (and some of them already married to other men), and (2) Joseph manipulated Helen by using her father to plead with her to marry Joseph to ensure salvation of the Kimball family. Just sick under any standard.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I learned about Joseph Smith and his wives from my mother's knee before I was twelve ...

Something tells me this claim is BS; either that, or your mother told you some strange bedtime stories.

... and then in my first year of seminary as a high school freshman.

Geesh, and all I got were lousy Tom Trails filmstrips.

[_rcrocket]

In Joseph Smith's day, it wasn't illegal to marry a 14-year-old.

It was if he was already married.

I don't buy the notion that it is a shocking concept that a man in his 20s would marry a 14-year-old in the early 19th century.

Joseph was 37 (just 4 years younger than Heber Kimball), and Helen was 14. What made it even worse: (1) Joseph was already married to several women (and some of them already married to other men), and (2) Joseph manipulated Helen by using her father to plead with her to marry Joseph to ensure salvation of the Kimball family. Just sick under any standard.

What standard? You've already mentioned the law as your standard. Bigamy was indeed illegal in Illinois, but not marrying a 14-year-old. So, other than the law, what standard compels your argument?