Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.
Of course, I have a fairly good idea what I think about this, but what do others think? Does this reflect badly upon Elder Talmage? Do you see it as a joke on him? Do you wish he had stayed so that the threat could be carried out?
What are everyone's thoughts?
Regards, Pahoran
How would it reflect badly on Elder Talmage? It seems like the other Christians were being very un-Christian. I've never heard this story before, but if it's true, he certainly did the right thing by leaving.
Pahoran, I've got a question for you. What kind of answers did you expect to get on this forum? Does my answer or some of the others who have felt that Talmage did the right thing surprise you?
I'm unable to find my original source. If I find it I'll quote it. The story as I first saw it was spun to make Elder Talmage look like a fool.
Well, when you find it, get back to us. I'm interested in context, the time, date, and place it happened, what else was going on at the time, and were there any police within calling distance?
In the meantime, we'll assume it's another just one of your... undocumented allegations, and give it all the scrutiny to which it is due.
Nice euphemism. Well, this is not the source I originally saw, but it tells the same story:
Nov 11,1919 - Apostle James E. Talmage attends Third Christian Citizenship Conference in Pittsburgh as delegate chosen by Utah's governor. Utah delegates are booed and hissed by 4,000 other delegates. Talmage hurriedly leaves after some delegates surround him and threaten to strip off his clothes in order to display his temple garments.(Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power)
1919? That explains it. With all that pent up Victorian repression, they probably got all steamed up at the thought
of seeing a little garment. Those naughty Victorians! Must have given Elder Talmadge quite a fright.
Nov 11,1919 - Apostle James E. Talmage attends Third Christian Citizenship Conference in Pittsburgh as delegate chosen by Utah's governor. Utah delegates are booed and hissed by 4,000 other delegates. Talmage hurriedly leaves after some delegates surround him and threaten to strip off his clothes in order to display his temple garments.(Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy : Extensions of Power)
But hey--maybe I made that up, too.
Regards, Pahoran
So this took place almost 100 years ago, only a few years after the second Manifesto that finally did away with one of the two barbaric practices the Republican party was formed to see ground into the dust. What significance do you see this incident having to today's world? Or do you often troll history to find something to be outraged about?
You said earlier that you had some specific thoughts regarding this story, Pahoran.
We've shard our views. I think most of us, whether or not we are for or against the Church, think that Elder Talmage was perfectly justified in leaving, and it sounds like the group he was attending was in the wrong for threatening him.
I'm still confused as to how this could be construed to make Elder Talmage look foolish. Your thoughts?
I would say that their anger was understandable, but their threat was inexcusable. Stripping someone down to their underwear is almost always done to embarass the person, and in a rather base manner. I'm almost embarassed for those who think underwear is a great way to ridicule someone. What's next? We threaten to strip people down to expose which men wear ladies underwear and which ones wear Depends?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy. eritis sicut dii I support NCMO
I still feel like I don't have the full context, but I do agree with Liz and asbestosman that Talmage was justified in leaving. As to who was to "blame," once again, I just don't feel like I have all the information I need to make that call. For example, were LDS invited to participate in this get-together, or did they just show up? You said in your OP that Talmage "tried to talk to the 'Christians'," but I see no indication that that's what took place. For all we know, he could have been lecturing them, or accusing them of being "vile anti-Mormons."
In any case, I do think that the threat was unfortunate, and that Talmage was justified in fleeing.
liz3564 wrote:I'm unable to find my original source. If I find it I'll quote it. The story as I first saw it was spun to make Elder Talmage look like a fool.
And no, I'm not surprised by the answers I've received so far.
Regards, Pahoran
If it had been me, I would have done just as Elder Talmage did. I'm not sure how inappropriate threats by others could be spun to make Talmage look foolish.
Pahoran, why are you using Quinn as a resource for anything? Huh?
If another, especially a critic, brings up Quinn, you insult Quinn's good name by accusing him of getting exed for being a "practising homosexual." Which you know is not true, don't you?
So, how should we respond to you if now you want to use him as a source for such a stupid story to begin with? What's your point, Pahoran? Why is Quinn's research now to be taken seriously? And what are you doing using it? after the s*** you dished out about him on FAIR(?)?
Should I put your statement about Quinn up here for everyone to see? Do you admit that you belittle his good name for cheap apologetic purposes?
I lost all respect for you the day you did that, Pahoran.
And, I'm sure you have little for me. Trust me. I can live with that.
I detest my loose style and my libertine sentiments. I thank God, who has removed from my eyes the veil... Adrian Beverland
Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.
Quinn relates this story in his timeline in Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power on p. 817. Talmage, and other Utah delegates, were also booed and hissed by the other 4,000 delegates. I would have done the same as Talmage in that situation (I don't think it reflects badly on him at all -- but it certainly does on those who threatened him), as well as noting the irony that the conference's treatment of the Utah delegation was decidedly unChristian.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."
-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
Pahoran wrote:I believe it was D. Michael "The Mighty" Quinn who related a story of Elder James E. Talmage attending an interfaith gathering. He attempted to speak to some of the other "Christian" participants, and they threatened to strip his clothes off him and expose his garments if he didn't leave, so he left.
Quinn relates this story in his timeline in Mormon Hierarchy: Extensions of Power on p. 817. Talmage, and other Utah delegates, were also booed and hissed by the other 4,000 delegates. I would have done the same as Talmage in that situation (I don't think it reflects badly on him at all -- but it certainly does on those who threatened him), as well as noting the irony that the conference's treatment of the Utah delegation was decidedly unChristian.
What was Talmadge doing at the conference anyway? I can't see the Mormons being invited. Did they crash the conference? Were they invited (that would have been odd, considering the anti-Mormon sentiments of the day). Were Jews invited? Muslims? Wiccans? Any other non-Christians?