Are we enemies?

[_harmony]

What in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason

Several things:

1. the original concept of Relief Society although I would certainly have called it something else. Certainly a women's organization that had as much clout and power as the men's organizations was very progressive and ahead of its time.

2. the idea that any member is welcome in any ward in the system, that there are no strangers among the Saints.

3. the idea that God, our Heavenly Father, and God, Jesus Christ, are two separate beings, with bodies, capable of strong emotions.

4. the idea that we can progress past the imperfections of our earthly lives.

5. the idea of preparedness, personal, family, emergency, etc.

6. the ideas behind the church welfare system.

7. the idea of personal revelation and with it, personal accountability

8. the idea that God answers prayers

9. the idea that family is the most important relationship we can have, although we don't emphasize it enough and certainly don't live it enough.

10. the idea that faith and works are two parts of the same coin

11. the idea that children are innocent

12. the idea that God is no respector of persons (we don't live this one very well, but it's basic)


Those will do for starters.

[_Jason Bourne]

What in or about the LDS Church do you love?

Jason

Several things:

1. the original concept of Relief Society although I would certainly have called it something else. Certainly a women's organization that had as much clout and power as the men's organizations was very progressive and ahead of its time.

2. the idea that any member is welcome in any ward in the system, that there are no strangers among the Saints.

3. the idea that God, our Heavenly Father, and God, Jesus Christ, are two separate beings, with bodies, capable of strong emotions.

4. the idea that we can progress past the imperfections of our earthly lives.

5. the idea of preparedness, personal, family, emergency, etc.

6. the ideas behind the church welfare system.

7. the idea of personal revelation and with it, personal accountability

8. the idea that God answers prayers

9. the idea that family is the most important relationship we can have, although we don't emphasize it enough and certainly don't live it enough.

10. the idea that faith and works are two parts of the same coin

11. the idea that children are innocent

12. the idea that God is no respector of persons (we don't live this one very well, but it's basic)


Those will do for starters.

Ok. That is a good start. Now, can I ask you this. You seem very hostile towards Joseph Smith. I understand this some. There are concerns I have about his career. Can you tell me if you think he was a prophet at all? Do you think God at least got him started? If yes, where do you think Joseph took it farther the God wanted him to?

Jason

[_harmony]

Ok. That is a good start. Now, can I ask you this. You seem very hostile towards Joseph Smith. I understand this some. There are concerns I have about his career. Can you tell me if you think he was a prophet at all? Do you think God at least got him started? If yes, where do you think Joseph took it farther the God wanted him to?

Jason

Hostile? Betrayed is a more apt word. Dismayed, disheartened, ashamed are all applicable too.

I think he was a prophet right up until he took Fanny to bed and then used God's name to cover his adultery. And lied about it. Again and again. Shameful behavior. Just as adultery has felled many a preacher and president, so it felled Joseph Smith also.

[_Runtu]

I guess I don't have the same problem, as I do not love the church or its prophets. And yes, "betrayed" is a good word.

[_Jason Bourne]

Ok. That is a good start. Now, can I ask you this. You seem very hostile towards Joseph Smith. I understand this some. There are concerns I have about his career. Can you tell me if you think he was a prophet at all? Do you think God at least got him started? If yes, where do you think Joseph took it farther the God wanted him to?

Jason

Hostile? Betrayed is a more apt word. Dismayed, disheartened, ashamed are all applicable too.

I think he was a prophet right up until he took Fanny to bed and then used God's name to cover his adultery. And lied about it. Again and again. Shameful behavior. Just as adultery has felled many a preacher and president, so it felled Joseph Smith also.

So, do you believe that that Book of Mormon is God's word and the revelations in the D&C are God's words up to the Fanny affair? Do you believe that God may have given Joseph Smith revelations after the Fanny affiar? Do you believe Joseph Smith's account of how he got the Book of Mormon and about the First Vision?

Jason

[_rcrocket]

I think he was a prophet right up until he took Fanny to bed and then used God's name to cover his adultery. And lied about it. Again and again. Shameful behavior. Just as adultery has felled many a preacher and president, so it felled Joseph Smith also.

You know so little of this matter, yet you are willing to give Joseph Smith's attackers the benefit of every doubt.

"Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned . . . ." D&C 121:16.

I know this scripture, as all the rest, will have little meaning to you. I know your response to me will be something along the lines of, well, if I am cursed I am cursed. How can God expect me to have faith under these circumstances, etc. etc.?

But you, in particularly, are in error for posting anonymous attacks against the church and pretending, in real life (or so you say) to be a believing member.

May I suggest some changes:

1. Become more learned.

2. Be less hypocritical.

P

[_Runtu]

I think he was a prophet right up until he took Fanny to bed and then used God's name to cover his adultery. And lied about it. Again and again. Shameful behavior. Just as adultery has felled many a preacher and president, so it felled Joseph Smith also.

You know so little of this matter, yet you are willing to give Joseph Smith's attackers the benefit of every doubt.

"Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned . . . ." D&C 121:16.

I know this scripture, as all the rest, will have little meaning to you. I know your response to me will be something along the lines of, well, if I am cursed I am cursed. How can God expect me to have faith under these circumstances, etc. etc.?

But you, in particularly, are in error for posting anonymous attacks against the church and pretending, in real life (or so you say) to be a believing member.

May I suggest some changes:

1. Become more learned.

2. Be less hypocritical.

P

Excuse me, but you do not know anything about her knowledge or character other than a few posts here. Who are you to say she knows "little of this matter"? Are you suggesting that one cannot take the position that she does and be a faithful member? Even if that were true, it would not be hypocritical to believe the things she can and reject that which she can't.

Jesus called people hypocrites because he knew their hearts. You don't.

[_Tarski]

asbestosman mentioned in another thread his philosophy for dealing with enemies, and I realized that I don't consider anyone here my enemy, and I do not consider myself anyone's enemy. I am also not an enemy to the church. I have a calling, which I do to the best of my ability, even though I do not believe in the church. Yes, sometimes I vent my frustrations toward the church, but I don't hate it, and I don't wish it would cease to exist.

For the record, I think the church works for some people. I know a lot of people who would be far worse off if they did not have Mormonism in their lives. I don't believe I'm one of those people, but I don't begrudge them for getting something out of the religion that I don't.

What do you think? Are we enemies, or just people who disagree passionately?

I feel like I have a few buddies among the apologists and I don't like they idea of being enemies. I do like to be able to call it like I see it in terms of my assessment of Joseph Smith and the LDS church.

On the other hand, there are some who post in such a way that I fell they do think of me as an enemy. Maybe I am wrong but I feel like Pahoran couldn't stand to be in the same room with me.

[_Yoda]

Excuse me, but you do not know anything about her knowledge or character other than a few posts here. Who are you to say she knows "little of this matter"? Are you suggesting that one cannot take the position that she does and be a faithful member? Even if that were true, it would not be hypocritical to believe the things she can and reject that which she can't.

Jesus called people hypocrites because he knew their hearts. You don't.

Plutarch and Harmony have a history, Runtu, which I'm sure Harmony will address. Plutarch seems to think that Harmony is the devil incarnated. LOL

At any rate, you're a good guy for defending her honor...and I agree with you! ;)

[_Runtu]

I feel like I have a few buddies among the apologists and I don't like they idea of being enemies. I do like to be able to call it like I see it in terms of my assessment of Joseph Smith and the LDS church.

On the other hand, there are some who post in such a way that I fell they do think of me as an enemy. Maybe I am wrong but I feel like Pahoran couldn't stand to be in the same room with me.

It makes you wonder if we met under different circumstances and didn't know of our relationship toward the church, would we get along? I'd say we probably would.

I wouldn't mind sitting down over dinner with Pahoran. I'll bet it would be an interesting conversation. I just think that these boards lend themselves to a profound relaxation of normal rules of human kindness.