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When I was in junior high school, we had a classmate who came from a family that lived (literally) in a tar-paper shack on the other side of the railroad tracks in the town I grew up in. For whatever reason, be it genetics or environment, all five of the children from that family suffered from severe learning disabilities, and yet they were marginally qualified for the public schools. The oldest child, a boy, was a classmate of mine.

One afternoon while waiting for the bus to take us home, I noticed a large circle of kids gathered around what appeared to be a fight about to begin. Taller than most, I was able to see over their heads to the inside of the circle. There I saw a boy who was one of the “popular” kids, and yet he never seemed to be satisfied. He always wanted more of everything – whether it was the newest basketball shoes or the most cheerleaders hanging around him.

This popular boy had obviously picked a fight with the dirty boy from across the railroad tracks. He was pushing him around and taunting him, encouraging the boy to throw the first punch. Finally the dirty boy swung wildly, missing the popular boy. In retaliation, the popular boy beat the dirty boy to a pulp, leaving him bloodied and bruised on the ground as the bus pulled up and the crowd of kids piled into it.

I’m sure the cheerleaders were very proud.

Vici wrote:When I was in junior high school, we had a classmate who came from a family that lived (literally) in a tar-paper shack on the other side of the railroad tracks in the town I grew up in. For whatever reason, be it genetics or environment, all five of the children from that family suffered from severe learning disabilities, and yet they were marginally qualified for the public schools. The oldest child, a boy, was a classmate of mine.

One afternoon while waiting for the bus to take us home, I noticed a large circle of kids gathered around what appeared to be a fight about to begin. Taller than most, I was able to see over their heads to the inside of the circle. There I saw a boy who was one of the “popular” kids, and yet he never seemed to be satisfied. He always wanted more of everything – whether it was the newest basketball shoes or the most cheerleaders hanging around him.

This popular boy had obviously picked a fight with the dirty boy from across the railroad tracks. He was pushing him around and taunting him, encouraging the boy to throw the first punch. Finally the dirty boy swung wildly, missing the popular boy. In retaliation, the popular boy beat the dirty boy to a pulp, leaving him bloodied and bruised on the ground as the bus pulled up and the crowd of kids piled into it.

I’m sure the cheerleaders were very proud.

Hmmm. You don't seem to think much about Wade's ability to hold his own. And you also seem to consider Tal some kind of bully. Where do you get either of these ideas?

Wade always wants to engage in serious interactions, one on one, with exbelievers, in order to help them heal. Or so Wade says, and I have no reason to think that he doubts his own motives. Of course, those of us who observe these interactions feel we have cause to doubt his motives, but I would think that Wade would jump at this chance.

I've seen some of these interactions in the past, though, and can predict the outcome. But if you have the time and patience, tal, go for it.

Vici,

I find myself in the odd position of defending Wade. I don't doubt your comments were well intended, but they were really insulting to Wade. While he may appear as a dirty, poor, and learning disabled kid from the wrong side of the tracks to those who are critical of his positions (I agree he is not the best apologist, or even a good one), but believers probably don't view him quite that critically. So personal bias is a large factor in this judgment. As Wade as correctly pointed out several times, learning disabilities are not reflective of native intelligence, and bright people often find ways of working around their disabilities. Just because a person has disabilities does not mean that we should patronize and pity them. I believe that while their disabilities can be considered as a complicating factor at times, I don't think we should treat them as unable to handle the demands of life in general. Wade states that he has extensive education, even having taken some post grad classes in behavioralism, and believes he is qualified to "counsel" people in regards to their bigotry, fundamentalism, and homosexuality. In the past he has presented himself as someone even qualified to recognize, analyze, and mock other people's logical fallacies. He's not cowering in the corner like a beaten pup, he's beating his chest and acting quite superior in many ways. in my opinion, there is no reason to protect him from the natural consequences of such behavior.

Vici wrote:When I was in junior high school, we had a classmate who came from a family that lived (literally) in a tar-paper shack on the other side of the railroad tracks in the town I grew up in. For whatever reason, be it genetics or environment, all five of the children from that family suffered from severe learning disabilities, and yet they were marginally qualified for the public schools. The oldest child, a boy, was a classmate of mine.

One afternoon while waiting for the bus to take us home, I noticed a large circle of kids gathered around what appeared to be a fight about to begin. Taller than most, I was able to see over their heads to the inside of the circle. There I saw a boy who was one of the “popular” kids, and yet he never seemed to be satisfied. He always wanted more of everything – whether it was the newest basketball shoes or the most cheerleaders hanging around him.

This popular boy had obviously picked a fight with the dirty boy from across the railroad tracks. He was pushing him around and taunting him, encouraging the boy to throw the first punch. Finally the dirty boy swung wildly, missing the popular boy. In retaliation, the popular boy beat the dirty boy to a pulp, leaving him bloodied and bruised on the ground as the bus pulled up and the crowd of kids piled into it.

I’m sure the cheerleaders were very proud.

Just because you don't believe in Wade's ability to hold his own doesn't mean the rest of us follow your lead. Personally, I think Tal will have his hands full, but if he wants to wade through the barrage of words that Wade will throw at him, I say "go for it, both of you!"

Tal Bachman wrote:Hi

I wonder if Wade Englund would consent to my interview request. Will you, Wade? Maybe that would be cool for all the other folks on here. After we're done, you can interview me if you want.

As long as other guys promise not to jump in and try to derail the discussion, it might be kind of fun.

What do you say?

Tal

Sure, if I can interview you at RockStarWannabe.com

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Vici wrote:When I was in junior high school, we had a classmate who came from a family that lived (literally) in a tar-paper shack on the other side of the railroad tracks in the town I grew up in. For whatever reason, be it genetics or environment, all five of the children from that family suffered from severe learning disabilities, and yet they were marginally qualified for the public schools. The oldest child, a boy, was a classmate of mine.

One afternoon while waiting for the bus to take us home, I noticed a large circle of kids gathered around what appeared to be a fight about to begin. Taller than most, I was able to see over their heads to the inside of the circle. There I saw a boy who was one of the “popular” kids, and yet he never seemed to be satisfied. He always wanted more of everything – whether it was the newest basketball shoes or the most cheerleaders hanging around him.

This popular boy had obviously picked a fight with the dirty boy from across the railroad tracks. He was pushing him around and taunting him, encouraging the boy to throw the first punch. Finally the dirty boy swung wildly, missing the popular boy. In retaliation, the popular boy beat the dirty boy to a pulp, leaving him bloodied and bruised on the ground as the bus pulled up and the crowd of kids piled into it.

I’m sure the cheerleaders were very proud.

I personally value the point that you are making, and I believe it still applies even were the "dirty boy" to have thoroughly trounced the "popular kid". Fighting and violence (whether physical or verbal), when innitiated with the intent of demonstrating personal superiority, tends to demonstrate the opposite to the fair and reasonably minded, regardless of the outcome. For the "cheerleaders", though, they will see what they want to see.

However, I am not prepared to suggest that this is Tal's intent. On the chance that this isn't some harmless prank he is trying to play on me, I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt, and assume that his intents are sincere and that he has a respectful interest in exploring differing points of view.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Wade, as I said, once we're done you can interview me if you'd like. You can post it anywhere you like. By the way, I'm not sure I'd say I was trying to illuminate "different points of view", as much as understand you personally, and the nature of your faith.

So, is that a yes?

Tal Bachman wrote:Wade, as I said, once we're done you can interview me if you'd like. You can post it anywhere you like. By the way, I'm not sure I'd say I was trying to illuminate "different points of view", as much as understand you personally, and the nature of your faith.

So, is that a yes?

I would need a bit more information. I am not familiar with MD.com. What is the format of the interview? I prefer a written exchange where I can respond at my leisure and where I can give due consideration to the questions you ask.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

wenglund wrote:I would need a bit more information. I am not familiar with MD.com.

I'm sure "MD.com" is an abbreviation for "MormonDiscussions.com."