What exactly is a female "manly lawyer"? .....

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: What exactly is a female "manly lawyer"? .....

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:I ask this because at a recent BYU-I devotional, Dallin Oaks warned the women from becoming just that. The full text of his (with his wife, Kristen) talk can be found here:

http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Trans ... 7_Oaks.htm

Some highlights from the talk that caught my interest (all bold mine for emphasis):

1. On some "missing the mark" when it comes to Gospel topics:

We see this today. For example, some persons write General Authorities asking when we will be returning to Missouri or how we should plan to build up the New Jerusalem. Others want to know details about the Celestial Kingdom, such as the position of a person who lives a good life but never ever marries.

I don’t know the answers to any of these questions.
What I do know is that persons worrying about such things are probably neglecting to seek a firmer understanding and a better practice of the basic principles of the gospel that have been given to them with words of plainness by the scriptures and by the servants of the Lord.

In other words, stop asking the GA's any tough questions -- they simply don't know the answers.

2. Women should be women (this is where the "manly lawyer" comment is made):

While I am telling the men to be men, I also want to tell the women to be women.

Sisters, don’t fall for the worldly urging that women should emulate men in various masculine characteristics. That is not what the Lord created you to do. Please don’t misunderstand me. I am not saying that women should not be doctors or lawyers or any particular occupation that fits their circumstances. To use lawyering as an example, what I am saying is that women should not attempt to be manly lawyers. Nor should women emulate the worldly ways of womanhood. Your destiny is to be a wife and a mother in Zion, not a model and a streetwalker in Babylon. You should dress and act accordingly.

There's a lot in here. First, he seems to say that being a lawyer or doctor is ok for women IF "that fits their circumstances" (this seems to be a reference to the Proclamation's admonition that women should work outside the home IF unique circumstances "necessitate individual adaptation"). Second, women who do work should not be "manly" in whatever profession they choose (I have no idea what he means by "manly"). Third, a woman's "destiny" is to be a wife and mother in Zion -- does this suggest that women should not actively seek after a profession (in contrast, men are encouraged to work and provide even though their similar "destiny" is to be a husband and father in Zion)? Fourth, the last two sentences about looking like a whore is an extension of his "walking porno" comment to girls a couple of conferences ago.

3. As if to confirm that Dallin is an avowed sexist with a "Leave it to Beaver" mentality, I found this interesting comment from his wife, Kristen:

When we first married, I was working as a consultant for a publishing house based in Boston -- I never cooked except once a year. Poor Elder Oaks. The first few months we were married I burned everything, even grilled cheese sandwiches. I knew very little about housework; I didn’t even know how to match socks. Elder Oaks wears only two colors -- black and blue. I called my married sister in tears and asked how to sort them and she told me to go stand by the window.

Hmm. Cooking grilled cheese sandwiches, housework, sorting socks -- I guess this is what Dallin Oaks meant by a woman's "destiny" in Zion. I'm sure they are a very nice couple, but I think it is high time they moved into the 21st century.


I would assume by manly he means, aggesive, assertive, competative, being like a man is when a man trys to get ahead. Kind of and insult to men as well.

Jason
_truth dancer
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Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Jason,


I would assume by manly he means, aggesive, assertive, competative, being like a man is when a man trys to get ahead. Kind of and insult to men as well.


So, is he saying it is alright for men to be "aggressive, assertive, and competitive," but not women?

Is he saying being "aggressive, assertive, and competitive," are not good qualities or they are good qualities but only in men?

If these are not qood qualities, why didn't he say that men should not have them either?

I just really don't get this... :-)

And I don't get why there should be some difference between what is and is not acceptable behavior for men and women in the same profession.

~dancer~
_Jason Bourne
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Post by _Jason Bourne »

truth dancer wrote:Hey Jason,


I would assume by manly he means, aggesive, assertive, competative, being like a man is when a man trys to get ahead. Kind of and insult to men as well.


So, is he saying it is alright for men to be "aggressive, assertive, and competitive," but not women?

Is he saying being "aggressive, assertive, and competitive," are not good qualities or they are good qualities but only in men?

If these are not qood qualities, why didn't he say that men should not have them either?

I just really don't get this... :-)

And I don't get why there should be some difference between what is and is not acceptable behavior for men and women in the same profession.

~dancer~


I think he means manly in a negative sense, that in general, men are more combative and forceful in their career pursuits and that a woman does not need to be like a man to succeed. But like I said, this insults men. I hope that in my fairly succesful career pursuits I have not been "manly" the way I think Elder Oaks means.

Jason
_truth dancer
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Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Post by _truth dancer »

Hi Jason,

Thanks for your interpretation.

What totally baffles me is why Oaks says women should not be this way but gives men a free pass...

And, like you I find the idea rather insulting to men (if indeed his throughts reflect your interpretation).

I know plenty of fantastic men who are respectful, appropriate, and quite wonderful lawyers!

Again, I don't see why some (not so great) behavior is fine for men, but inappropriate for women in terms of their professional life.

Ahhh when will we leave the 1950s? LOL!

~dancer~
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