Postmodern LDS apologists

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_beastie
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Postmodern LDS apologists

Post by _beastie »

Apologists are drawn to a variation of post-modernism because they think it gives them an "out" in regards to the past controversies of church history.

It must be emphasized the post-modernism and deconstructionism are hardly held in esteem by even a majority of philosophers or historians. An example of a common reaction to these theories is seen here:

http://radicalacademy.com/adiphipostmodernism.htm

Positive contributions of Cultural Theory, Structuralism, Postmodernism, and Deconstructionism to the Perennial Philosophy.
Absolutely none. Strictly speaking, it could be argued that Cultural Theory and Structuralism are not really philosophies at all in the sense in which Classical Realists use the term. At the root, Deconstructionism and Postmodernism are really philosophies of Nonsense. As pointed out above, deconstructionism has been regularly attacked as childish philosophical skepticism and linguistic nihilism.


The well-known archaeologist, William Dever, is especially harsh in his assessment of these movements, and the harm they have done his own field. He summarizes deconstructionsim with these descriptions (page 14 from his book What Did the Biblical Writers Know and When Did They Know It)

1. A text is an “interpretable entity independent of its author”.
2. The “author’s intention” is an “illusion created by readers”. What matters is only the author’s “semantic universe.”
3. Language is “infinitely unstable and meaning is always deferrable.”
4. All texts are to be “resisted”.
5. An author’s “convictions” are not to be confused with “theological, ethical, or narrative expressions”.
6. Others’ “legitimate readings” are as good as ours.


His response to these items is found on the next page of his text:

1. Its determined “anti-historical” stance, for which I find no justification.
2. Its promise of superior results: but does this approach truly edify us, or merely entertain us?
3. Its lack of sophistication, despite its claims, particularly in its inchoate theories of “literary production.” These are usually borrowed from other disciplines long after they have become obsolete.
4. Its largely reactionary character, self-consciously situated on the “margins” of society and preoccupied with questions of ideology and power and political discourses that may be totally foreign to the text.
5. Its stress on the “social context” of all knowledge, but its ignoring the original context of the text itself.
6. Its minimalization of the importance of philological, historical, and comparative-analytical competence; its “know-nothing” attitude toward, or denial of, any original context.
7. Its contradiction in insisting upon the “isolation” of an individual text, but at the same time arguing that “intertextuality” is essential in reading texts.
8. Its positing that a text must be “tested”, but producing no criteria by which that may be accomplished.
9. Its denial of “authorial intent”, which defies common sense.
10. Its ultimate cultural relativism, which makes the text mean anything the reader wants. This is no different than the distortion and exploitation of texts of which they accuse both Fundamentalists and the liberal religious establishment of the past.
11. Its fondness for “posing questions” of the text, but its lack of any answers.
12. Its elevation of the reader’s subjective concerns to the status of final arbiter of “meaning”, which I find arrogant and self-indulgent
13. The oppressively ideological and polemical character of the entire movement, which substitutes slogans for sustained rational argument.
14. The superiority of this approach is often asserted, usually dogmatically; but is actual reading of texts often borders on the fantastic.
15. A typical postmodern stance is assumed as essential, but it is rarely defended. Is the latest fad (for that is what it will in time be seen to have been) really the best?

In Defense of Ancient Texts

As an archaeologist, I admit to being “premodern” in outlook, an unreconstructed traditionalist by temperament and training. Consider, by contrast, traditional assumptions in approaching ancient texts, which I find infinitely preferable and more rewarding.

1. A text is a product of a particular time, place, culture, and language, and it must be placed back in that context to be understood at all.
2. A text is written by an author with a specific intent, usually for a specific audience.
3. An original “meaning” is inherent and is expressed in language that is both deliberate and potentially intelligible.
4. The reader’s first task in approaching a text is to place himself and his situation in the background, attempting to be as “objective” as possible so as to be open to the text’s original (ie, “true”) meaning in its own terms as far as possible.
5. Methodically, there is no substitute for mastery of the text’s original language, geographical and cultural setting, and the light that other contemporary texts may shed.
6. Since there are, at best, always personal, subjective factors at work in interpreting an ancient text, these must be acknowledged; but they may then be usefully exploited. These factors include intuition; an educated imagination; and, above all, sympathy, or “positioning oneself within understanding distance”.
7. Above all, the question of the modern appropriation of the perceived meaning of a text must be kept strictly separate during the initial interpretation in fulfillment of the requirement of “disinterestedness.” Even thereafter, the applied meaning is tentative, and is not possessed of the same “authority” that the text may have had in its original context. In short, theological concerns must be rigidly distinguished from historical exegesis. As Krister Stendahl, distinguished theologian, New Testament scholar, and former Dean of Harvard Divinity School, once observed, there are two separate questions to be asked in all historical inquiry, especially in biblical studies. (1) What did the text mean? And (2) What does it mean?


Dever is particularly interested in ascertaining the origins of the ancient Israelites, and criticizes a revisionist, Thomas L. Thompson, who asserts things such as:

“Archaeology “cannot distinguish” Israelite from Canaanite culture.” I add this notation because it is so commonly asserted among today’s Book of Mormon apologists that one would not be able to distinguish a Nephite from a Native Mesoameircan culture.

But my main point is that postmodernism relies, on large extent, on the “unknowability” of (fill in the blank). This is an ironic stance for people who, in the end, still insist that one knowledge is, indeed, knowable: that the LDS church is the “one true church”. Their approach seems to be to undermine every other method of obtaining knowledge in order to proclaim the LDS revelatory model superior to all other methods of obtaining knowledge. So, in the end, if historical information and scientific findings seem to present uncomfortable challenges or contradictions to this “truth”, they can be disregarded because they (the historical and scientific findings) are so fallible in their origins.

See Juliann Reynold’s essay on FAIR:
http://www.fairlds.org/Misc/Critics_in_ ... Glass.html

Why is this understanding of the Latter-day Saint position in relation to the greater religious scene important? It is important because too many LDS perceive liberal scholarship to be a threat to the fundamental tenets of Christianity. Certainly, there are radical-even disrespectful and blasphemous-ideas being bandied about. But because the media highlights the sensational, such as the Jesus Seminar, and a small group of disaffected iconoclasts appropriate the title of "liberal," we have developed an unnecessarily defensive attitude towards the methodological approaches that are best suited for the academic study of our religion.

Given these claims for "truth" that any liberal would consider out of reach in the scholarly forum these iconoclasts favor, it is critical that LDS apologists understand the philosophical foundation that props up their critiques.

“Christian theology lays out how the world looks from a Christian perspective, with whatever persuasive force that account musters and whatever connections it may happen to make with other perspectives, but it does not systematically ground or defend or explicate that picture in terms of universal criteria of meaningfulness or truth.16”

It is simply not possible for anyone to prove "truth" through careful studies of historical documents no matter how appealing the prospect sounds.

Regardless of our social or political leanings, believing LDS are particularly suited to the liberal study of religion because we have a simple promise that is not dependent on extrapolating truth from disputed facts by using current standards of science and logic. " If ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost" (Moroni 10:4). This is where truth resides for believing LDS. It is an intensely personal journey that cannot be adequately addressed in thoughtful propositions, provocative new histories, stimulating symposiums and intellectually rich journals no matter how valuable and necessary they may be in our search for deeper understanding. As James Allen put it, "The vast majority of Church members care little for the sophisticated arguments that characterize the dialogue on either side." Instead, we value the Church because we see it "as an inspired program" which gives us "certain definite spiritual and social opportunities and values."17


So, in the end, the point of this recent trend in LDS apologia is to undermine the reliability of knowledge obtained from human reason, science, and logic. But, for some reason, it isn’t enough to just flat out state that a believing LDS can feel good about ignoring logic and science in retaining faith – it must be dressed up in, ironically, the same reasoning and logic that means nothing in the first place, so they reach for postmodernism and deconstructionism to “validate” what they are saying. They aren’t just religious rubes, for heaven’s sake. They are even more “enlightened” than those who think they are “enlightened”!! The experts (ie, postmodernists) say so!

It is, after all, “fundamentalists” who actually insist that human beings have constructed reliable methods to obtaining reliable knowledge about how the world works and its history. (Of course, even postmodernists become fundamentalists when choosing a medical doctor.)

Of course, there is still a division between true postmodernists and po-mo LDS apologists, and that is a wide divide. In the end, LDS apologists insist that, despite all the unreliability that invalidates every other method of obtaining knowledge, once GOD intervenes with REVELATION, then one can obtain very reliable knowledge indeed!!! Ironic, given the track record of revelation, which I described in an old post of mine on FAIR:

Let's say I need to take some measurements in order to plan a construction project. "Instrument X" is offered to me as a means to obtain the knowledge I want - the lengths of certain plots. However, "instrument X" has a history of producing results that are ambiguous. It is unknown exactly why this occurs, but the history of its use demonstrates quite clearly that, even when used by 'experts', the results are ambiguous. This ambiguity is not a problem with many minor projects, but it would be a problem with the more important projects. When I express concern over the reliability of instrument X due to the past reliability issue, I am told by the folks who are comfortable using instrument X that when the project is important enough, instrument X will no longer produced ambiguous results. I wonder why, when it's the same instrument, used by the same user. What reason would I have to trust that the same instrument is capable of completely clear and accurate results when it has such a long history of ambiguous results? And if it is capable of clear and accurate results for important projects, why would it not simply produce those type of results for all projects?

Now, communication between God and man is instrument X. Although it can be called by various names, for simplicity, I'll call it revelation. Here are some generic groups I've noticed within Mormonism (again, please use common sense and accept that variations exist, and that this is not unique to Mormonism). I'm going to use the terms I've seen used on this board.
Group A: fundamentalist: There is no ambiguity in the results. Any apparent ambiguity is a result of human error in record keeping or clearly understanding the words of the person reporting the results.

Group B: liberal (I'll call them cafeteria liberals) There is some ambiguity to be expected, this is normal and human. But this ambiguity is only a factor in peripheral issues, the foundational issues of the church have no ambiguity.

Group C: full blown liberal: All religion is predicated on a certain degree of ambiguity, and that includes Mormonism. Although there is no way that I can have assurance that I, personally, am not erroneous in my conclusions, and will not be judgmental towards those who have concluded differently, I believe Mormonism is just as valid as any other religious path, and it is the one that I prefer.

Group A is consistent, although they may be challenged in proving their case. Group C is consistent. Group B is inconsistent.
Group B tends to defend their inconsistency by stating, or insinuating, that there are different types of revelation and that some is so clear that there can be no doubt as to the conclusion. Leaving aside the question of why, if that degree of clarity is possible between man and God, why then doesn't God be consistent in his clarity - there remains the problem that, since revelation is inherently subjective and impossible to share, one never knows how "strong" one's own revelation actually is, comparatively speaking. Perhaps the strongest revelation one has ever received is actually quite tepid and weak in comparison to the revelation someone of a different belief system has received. I've seen this argument used to explain how people can receive spiritual assurances about faiths other than the "one true" church, Mormonism, but the knife cuts both ways.

Let's demonstrate:

Born Again EV: I have received assurance that I am saved!!! It was such a strong experience I have no doubt of its validity. I have no interest in finding a "more true" faith because of the strength of this experience. People who think they have had spiritual assurances about OTHER faiths are being misled, either by satan, or because they haven't experienced an event as strong, and clear, as my own.

Mormon: I have received a testimony of the truthfulness of the church!!! It is such a strong experience I have no doubt of its validity. I have no interest in finding a "more true" faith because of the strength of this experience. People who think they have had spiritual assurances about OTHER faiths are being misled, either by satan, or because they haven't experienced an event as strong, and clear, as my own.

??????: I have received a witness of the truth of (faith X). It is such a strong experience I have no doubt of its validity. I have no interest in finding a "more true" faith because of the strength of this experience. People who think they have had spiritual assurances about OTHER faiths are being misled, either by satan, or because they haven't experienced an event as strong, and clear, as my own.

Now, the entire problem is that NONE of these people can ever KNOW what the other experienced, and hence, has absolutely no rational justification for dismissing the others' as less strong or clear. And each person has no way of knowing whether or not an even MORE clear or strong experience could be had in another faith.

The result: ambiguity.

Yes, ambiguity is a part of life, a part of all communications, and, by definition of the experience, an inevitable part of revelation. Either embrace it in its entirety or stop trying to pretend that you do.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

Reading this post reminded me of a story from Elder Holland, about him and his son Matt:

Matthew Holland was born in 1966, Mary Alice in 1969, and David Frank (who recently returned after serving a mission in the Czech Republic) in 1973. Matt, now a doctoral student at Duke University, recalls that spiritual training was a part of everyday family life. On an outing when he was about twelve, he had his first experience with feeling personal revelation.

Returning from an exploring trip on backcountry roads, he and his father came to an unexpected fork and could not remember which road to take. It was late in the day, and they knew darkness would be enveloping them in unfamiliar territory. Seizing a teaching moment, Jeffrey Holland asked his son to pray for direction. Afterward, he asked his son what he felt, and Matt replied that he felt strongly they should go to the left. Replying that he had felt the same way, his father turned the truck to the left. Ten minutes later, they came to a dead end and returned to take the other route.

Matt thought for a time and then asked his father why they would get that kind of answer to a prayer. His father replied that with the sun going down, that was undoubtedly the quickest way for the Lord to give them information—in this case, which one was the wrong road. Now, though the other road might not be familiar and could be difficult in places, they could proceed confidently, knowing it was the right one, even in the dark.


I relate this "confirmation bias" to beastie's post to show further ambiguity (and it's also a critique of my own thinking). Why did they need revelation to confirm inaccuracy, ie, the wrong turn of the road? If revelation is accurate, spot-on, revealed by God, then why weren't they given the correct direction the first time? And be able to trust it per se? It kind of reminds me of Dawkins response to John Paul II believing that the Blessed Virgin, or God, saved his life by letting the assassin's bullet narrowly miss his heart, but why didn't the Providence allow the bullet to miss him altogether? Like in the case of Ronald Reagan, that bullet missed him altogether. And Providence was there too. Abe Lincoln and JFK weren't so fortunate. I guess it was their "time". Whatever happens, God has to be "there" for an explanation. Even the Holocaust had a reason - the establishment of the State of Israel. Six million Jews had to die in concentration camps, by gunning down in the streets, gas chambers and torture - to establish a state, a place where Jews could live in peace, yet since 1948 they have had anything but peace. This is all "part of the plan", though, for Armageddon. Tom Paine's deism looks more enticing everyday, for those, that is, who can't get rid of the idea of God. God no longer intervenes, he creates then becomes unemployed, refusing to use his powers any more. Everything made was "good", including the male praying mantis, who occasionally loses his head to decapitation for better copulation effect by the female. And it doesn't make much sense for God to be blessing Turkeys on Thanksgiving while 50,000 people die of starvation everyday. For every dozen people saved by miraculous intervention, another hundred perish with no mercy. As Voltaire said, if God didn't exist, he would have to be invented. Everyone is sure they have the "right religion", because this revelation came by estactic revelation. I've read a number of accounts from "saints" who said they couldn't tell the difference between an orgasm and a revelation from God. Feelings are very real, but also very subjective.

The post-modernist view is aligned with self-serving bias, ie.:

the tendency to claim more responsibility for successes than failures. It may also manifest itself as a tendency for people to evaluate ambiguous information in a way beneficial to their interests.


However, post-modernist views are old, very old, from Kiergegaard, to Bultmann to Heidegger and Robinson, and depart from "Enlightemment ideals", because even in the Enlightenment liberals had some sway. Therefore, I see no simple solutions, and ultimatums to "accept the whole hog", one way or the other, are too simplistic.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Ray,

The problematic nature and ambiguity of revelation is one of my core disagreements with LDS theology. The entire foundation of the LDS church is based on this supposedly solid foundation, yet, when analyzed, it appears to be quite a shifting and weak foundation.

I know that my point that, if all human knowledge is that unreliable it is inconsistent and illogical to then insist that revelation is more reliable (ignoring both the history of revelation and the fact that it still is processed through a human being), is simplistic in terms of "it ain't gonna happen", but why is it otherwise simplistic?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote:The problematic nature and ambiguity of revelation is one of my core disagreements with LDS theology. The entire foundation of the LDS church is based on this supposedly solid foundation, yet, when analyzed, it appears to be quite a shifting and weak foundation.


I agree.

I know that my point that, if all human knowledge is that unreliable it is inconsistent and illogical to then insist that revelation is more reliable (ignoring both the history of revelation and the fact that it still is processed through a human being), is simplistic in terms of "it ain't gonna happen", but why is it otherwise simplistic?


I'm looking at the larger picture of the people I quoted, like Kierkegaard, and post-modernism in religion in general. As for Mormons, I see a mishmash of interpretation, and duality, or ambiguity. One is the emerging trend of treating the Book of Mormon as non-historical, or placing semantic reservations like "it's not a literal history", or "it's a religious record". This is all a nice way of saying "we really DON'T know what it is, but to us it's true". So if you're saying they MUST accept the Book of Mormon as historical for it to be "true revelation", I think more Mormons are in no man's land on this than we may realise (and Bushman seems to be taking them that way, perhaps?). I don't know how rock solid true, grounded in history and archaeology, it has to be for them, even when it comes to apologetics. They might be fighting the battles to defend historicity, and ignoring many of the rules of scholarship in the process, and doing what Dever doesn't like, but I doubt that this even creates an either/or situation for many, if not most, but you seem to say it should? Correct me if I'm reading you wrong. I could be.

So, in the end, the point of this recent trend in LDS apologia is to undermine the reliability of knowledge obtained from human reason, science, and logic. But, for some reason, it isn’t enough to just flat out state that a believing LDS can feel good about ignoring logic and science in retaining faith – it must be dressed up in, ironically, the same reasoning and logic that means nothing in the first place, so they reach for postmodernism and deconstructionism to “validate” what they are saying. They aren’t just religious rubes, for heaven’s sake. They are even more “enlightened” than those who think they are “enlightened”!! The experts (ie, postmodernists) say so!


I see your point there, the pretension, and in that I agree with you. But I wonder how many Mormons really do this? Maybe the larger portion at FARMS (of which the members seem to know or care little, and people like Paul O scorn, and he's not the only one), which reminds me, though, back in the 1990s I wrote Dan Peterson asking for an explanation of Helaman 12:13-14, which talks about the earth "going back" instead of the sun standing still. He replied that he felt this was "rhetorical". He made no attempt to use any kind of scientific explanation, there was no "dressing up". Paul O would say, yes, the earth did go back, just like the Book of Mormon says. Nor do I believe that Dan Peterson believes that people live in the sun (though I haven't heard his opinion). He would contradict Brigham Young, I think, or use the "he was speaking as a man" explanation.

So in this sense, I see no simple solutions. I think it's a matter of feeling and "personal witness", and all the dressing up is just camouflage, and maybe a good deal of self-deception. "We know here [pointing to heart] that it's true." That is the Alpha and Omega of belief. All of the scholarship in between is an attempt to make it more respectable, and much of it is pretentious.
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Oh, no, I don't mean that they must accept the Book of Mormon as literal history. What I mean is that if they really are going to embrace the ambiguous nature of revelation, then they should admit that they really don't have any more authoritative or certain evidence than any other believer in any other religion, that the LDS church is the "one true" something. It may be the one truest path for them, but once they embrace the "one true" ideology, then it is natural that all sorts of tribal and ugly behavior ensue. If they didn't pretend to embrace ambiguity when it comes to, for example, past problematic prophetic teachings, and then embrace certitude when it comes to the church being the "one true" church it wouldn't seem so inconsistent to me. It almost seems a case of either taking care of one's business or getting off the pot.

And I don't think many Mormons are in this conundrum at all. Most Mormons don't know enough about their faith to have to grapple with the issues that the "internet Mormons" have to grapple with. They aren't familiar with the contradictory or plain disgusting statements of past prophets, so don't feel any internal stress of figuring out how to deal with that while still being able to believe that they, individually, can communicate with God clearly enough to know he told them "the LDS church is the one true church".

No, there is no simple solution, there is only evolution. The evolution of other new religions in the past would seem to predict that the LDS church will eventually actually liberalize some of its foundational claims, and allow that while they cherish and embrace their own tradition, other churches might have just as much validity and authority as they do. Didn't the catholic church make some sort of statement along these lines not to long ago? I might be mistaken there, but I seem to remember something along that line. Of course, look at how long it took them to do it, and after how many gaffes.

What strikes me as ironic in all of this is that apostates are often accused by believers of losing their faith due to pride. The opposite is true. I know I lost my faith because I lost all pride in my ability to clearly "hear" the voice of God. In retrospect, it strikes me as astonishing that, as a nineteen year old convert, I somehow imagined I could "hear" him in such a clear way that I "knew" not only that he existed, but the LDS church was the ONLY church with his true authority to perform saving ordinances. The greatest minds this earth has ever produced have grappled and struggled with that problem for centuries, and I, in my arrogance, thought it was solved in one simple prayer? That is the pride I let go of, and the humble pie I had to swallow.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

beastie wrote: Didn't the catholic church make some sort of statement along these lines not to long ago? I might be mistaken there, but I seem to remember something along that line. Of course, look at how long it took them to do it, and after how many gaffes.


Catholics have been debating abolishing limbo, but not without some resistance:

Father Brian Harrison, a theologian, told the BBC News website that while limbo may have been a "hypothesis", he argues that the clear "doctrine of the Catholic Church for two millennia has been that wherever the souls of such infants do go, they definitely don't go to heaven".

He argues that this is borne out in the various funeral rites for unbaptised children practised by the Church.

"A papal decree reversing the firm Catholic belief of two millennia that infants dying unbaptised do not go to heaven would be like an earthquake in the structure of Catholic theology and belief," he said.

Some argue that the question of limbo has taken on fresh urgency because it could be hindering the Church's conversion of Africa and Asia, where infant mortality rates are high.

An article in the UK's Times newspaper this week suggested that the "Pope - an acknowledged authority on all things Islamic - is only too aware that Muslims believe the souls of stillborn babies go straight to heaven".

The theological commission ends its deliberations on Friday. Most commentators believe the Pope will not make any decision immediately. Until he does, the fate of limbo is in - well, limbo.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/5406552.stm

According to David Wright in a 1994 letter to his bishop:

The chain of events began with our meeting on April 27, 1993. In this meeting you said that a general authority had contacted the stake president and had asked him to inquire after me because of my article "Historical Criticism: A Necessary Element in the Search for Religious Truth" published in SUNSTONE (16/3 [September 1992; appeared February 1993] pp. 28-38). The stake president delegated to you the responsibility of contacting me. In the meeting you showed me a copy of my SUNSTONE article which you said Church headquarters had sent the stake president. Your judgment at that time was that my ideas were apostate. Your main interest was encouraging me to become orthodox in my thinking so that a disciplinary council wouldn't be necessary.

We met again in a formal way July 11. This meeting was to determine if I was orthodox enough to perform the baptism of my eight-year old son and the priesthood ordination of the twelve-son. You asked me a list of questions, mainly about the priesthood claims of Joseph Smith. I expressed my views positively but felt it necessary to put my answers in the context of my theological thinking that had grown out of my studies. You denied the legitimacy of my theological reconstructions. You said that I could not perform the ordinances if I did not have a conviction of the traditional understanding of the matters about which you questioned me. You said it would be hypocrisy to perform the ordinances without that conviction. Our family went ahead that month with the ordinances work because we felt it was important. (A friend performed the ordinances.) I was not asked, or allowed apparently, to participate in the ordinance work either as an official witness or as a silent participant in the confirmation and ordination circles. My family and I ceased going to Church at this time because we felt hurt and marginalized by events to this point.


http://lds-mormon.com/dpw.shtml

It's a wonder the church has done nothing about Van Hale, who has openly expressed his belief that the Book of Mormon is not historical. I am also wondering which GA decided to start this "investigation" of Wright.
_Mercury
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Post by _Mercury »

Ahh postmodernism, the last refuge for the uneducated seeking approval from the retarded.
And crawling on the planet's face
Some insects called the human race
Lost in time
And lost in space...and meaning
_OUT OF MY MISERY
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Post by _OUT OF MY MISERY »

VegasRefugee wrote:Ahh postmodernism, the last refuge for the uneducated seeking approval from the retarded.



That is funny. apology, apology, apology,,,,,whatever that means I am so confusd and bewildered by it all...
When I wake up I will be hungry....but this feels so good right now aaahhhhhh........
_beastie
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Post by _beastie »

Ray,

I always suspect Packer is part of these purges. I just received the magazine sent out by BYU's educational dep't (where I rec'd my undergrad degree) in the mail today and read an article by Packer that had some interesting and pertinent comments. I'm too tired to copy them tonight but will try to do tomorrow.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Runtu
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Post by _Runtu »

beastie wrote:Ray,

I always suspect Packer is part of these purges. I just received the magazine sent out by BYU's educational dep't (where I rec'd my undergrad degree) in the mail today and read an article by Packer that had some interesting and pertinent comments. I'm too tired to copy them tonight but will try to do tomorrow.


Here's some more Eagleton to chew on, in which he compares postmodernism to Michael Jackson and OJ Simpson (trivia of the day: Eagleton's wife, Willa, is a BYU graduate):

Celebrity trials, like those of OJ Simpson and Michael Jackson, are sometimes loosely called postmodern, meaning that they are media spectaculars thronged with characters who are only doubtfully real. But they are also postmodern in a more interesting sense. Courtrooms, like novels, blur the distinction between fact and fiction. They are self-enclosed spheres in which what matters is not so much what actually took place in the real world, but how it gets presented to the jury. The jury judge not on the facts, but between rival versions of them. Since postmodernists believe that there are no facts in any case, just interpretations, law courts neatly exemplify their view of the world.

Another thing which blurs the distinction between fact and fiction is Michael Jackson himself. There is a double unreality about staging the fiction of a criminal trial around a figure who has been assembled by cosmetic surgeons. Jackson's freakish body represents the struggle of fantasy against reality, the pyrrhic victory of culture over biology. Quite a few young people are not even aware that he is black. If postmodern theory won't acknowledge that there is any such thing as raw nature, neither will this decaying infant.

It is hardly surprising that he has expressed a wish to live forever, given that death is the final victory of nature over culture. If the US sanitises death, it is because mortality is incompatible with capitalism. Capital accumulation goes on forever, in love with a dream of infinity. The myth of eternal progress is just a horizontalised form of heaven. Socialism, by contrast, is not about reaching for the stars but returning us to earth. It is about building a politics on a recognition of human frailty and finitude. As such, it is a politics which embraces the reality of failure, suffering and death, as opposed to one for which the word "can't" is almost as intolerable as the word "communist".

If Michael Jackson is a symbol of western civilisation, it is less because of his materialism than because of his immaterialism. Behind the endless accumulation of expensive garbage lies a Faustian spirit which no object could ever satisfy.

Like Jackson's cosmetic surgeons, postmodernism believes in the infinite plasticity of the material world. Reality, like Jackson's over-chiselled nose, is just meaningless matter for you to carve as you choose. Just as Jackson has bleached his skin, so postmodernism bleaches the world of inherent meaning. This means that there is nothing to stop you creating whatever you fancy; but for the same reason your creations are bound to be drained of value. For what is the point of imposing your will on a meaningless reality? The individual is now a self-fashioning creature, whose supreme achievement is to treat himself as a work of art.

Ethics turns into aesthetics. And just as there are no constraints on the individual self, so there are no natural limits to promoting freedom and democracy across the globe. What looks like a generous-hearted tolerance - you can be whatever you like - thus conceals an imperial will. The tattoo parlour and George Bush's foreign policy may seem light years distant, but both assume that the world is pliable stuff on which to stamp your will. Both are forms of narcissism for which the idea of reality putting up some resistance to your predatory designs on it, whether in the form of the Iraqi opposition or a visit from the local district attorney, is an intolerable affront.

Postmodern culture rejects the charge that it is superficial. You can only have surfaces if you also have depths to contrast them with, and depths went out with DH Lawrence. Nowadays, appearance and reality are one, so that what you see is what you get. But if reality seems to have dwindled to an image of itself, we are all the more sorely tempted to peer behind it. This is the case with Jackson's Neverland. Is it really the kitschy, two-dimensional paradise it appears to be, or is there some sinisterly unspeakable truth lurking beneath it? Is it a spectacle or a screen?

If courtrooms are quintessentially postmodern, it is because they lay bare the relations between truth and power, which for postmodernism come to much the same thing. Truth for them, as for the ancient Sophists, is really a question of who can practise the most persuasive rhetoric. In front of a jury, he with the smoothest tongue is likely to triumph. On this view, all truth is partisan: the judge's summing up is simply an interpretation of interpretations. What determines what is true for you is your interests, which in turn are determined by gender, class, ethnicity and the like. The Simpson trial gave a new twist to the claim that truth is black and white: whether you thought the defendant guilty or innocent depended to a large extent on your skin colour. But the other interests in question are financial ones. Just as the scientist with the fattest research grant is most likely to produce results, so truth in the Simpson and Jackson trials is a commodity to be knocked down to whoever has the deepest pockets. In this sense, a good deal of postmodern theory can be illustrated by a single time-worn phrase: get yourself a good lawyer.
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