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Hello All,

I don't think I've ever gotten a solid answer from TBM's on this so I decided to ask it here. In your view is Christianity an apostate religion and how do you think that is so?

Jersey Girl

After Adam fell, he prayed to the Father to help him gain forgiveness and a return to his company. In answer to Adams prayer, the Father sen tangels to instruct Adam. The great plan of redemption through Christ was taught, and commandments were given to help Adam and all his posterity grow and progress in the knowledge of God.

Part of this plan of salvation was Baptism. Baptism is the sealing of the Name of Christ by the power of the priesthood upon the individual. After this the Gift of the Holy Ghost is given by the Laying on of hands, and by and through this gift an individual is sanctified by the power of the Holy Ghost that they may be made clean from this fallen condition. The Priesthood is required for the bestowal of this gift as well.

No sooner was the gospel taught to Adams first generation, than there were those who wanted to change and adapt it.

The same is true today. There are thousands of Christian churchs, some claiming authority to act in Gods name, some claiming authority is unneccesary. Baptism through a sprinkle of water, baptism by walking across a bridge, baptism by raiseing ones hand while no one else is looking. The list goes on and on.

The Mormon Church sees the "Apostate" churchs as having portions of truth, but lacking its fulness. What shoudl be desired is the same religion that Adam had. The authority to officiate in the sealing of the name of Christ upon those who seek to emulate him, and the knowledge through living prophets and the Holy Ghost that help to sanctify and prepare us to dwell in the presence of the Father,

Gaz

Hi Jersey Girl, i just addressed the exact same question over on "Mormon Think Tank"??? Ya might wanna check it out...

However, to the question: in my seriously considered opinion (IMSCO) "YES", all Christianism, and that includes LDSism, and i am a TBM--Truth-Based-Mormon--is so far off the mark that Jesus drew in the sand--recall the adultress story--as to have little identity to what HE introduced by the "...two new commandments..."!

Nor have i found any that REALLY practice many of HIS admonitions...

"Prayer"... secretly; with FEW words when publicly; needn't "ask" cuz "God" knows needs; for your enemies (that a spiritual bond may be extended towards peace and goodwill)... I respectfully suggest personal/group prayer is to change the prayer's attitude, not "God's"...

IMSCO, "God" as Jesus taught is not influenced by acts irrelevant to the Universe, or by pleas of intervention. Such behaviour is a primitive's understanding of a human-like-god who can be bribed and cajoled as a child by manipulative parents. Like who's in charge here? Nor does "He" have favourites. Nor does "He" fight battles or win wars...

"Seek not after treasures that rust..." What Christian establishment church REALLY teaches that? What Christian establishment church REALLY demonstrates that?

"Greatest to serve (not master) the less gifted..." What Christian establishment church REALLY instructs to that end?

"Charity never faileth..." What Christian establishment church REALLY teaches, and demonstrates that principle?

"Forgiveness, not retribution, is the essence of Christ's ideals for living..." What Christian establishment church does not have a ritualized process of "repentance"? Christ in his 3 years of teaching and mingling with his people never suggested such a "process". To the adultress, he simply said, "...neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more..." Some churches are more charitable in such circumstances. All should be to set a truly Christ-like standard of human relations.

Interestingly, such empathy is often much to the chagrin of more orthodox sects that demand their pond of flesh by 'shunning', 'disfellowshiping', 'excommunication' etc. Such punitive measures are Old Testament and cultural corruptions, little to do with Jesus.

IF there is an accounting, a judgement bar, as Establishment Christian churches claim, church Leaders will find themselves with out much reward in Heaven. They've "had their reward" as Jesus so often said about the Scribes, Pharasees, and hypocrites of his day... They didn't know "God"!

To that might well be added, post Jesus, they taught not my New Commandments, but continued the Old ways of greed, hate, prejudice, war and injustice...

How can there be honest denial of how ineffective Establishment Christianism has been in shaping society in comparison to Science and Capitalism. Churches' major success has been accomodating the apostacy and corruptions while themselves serving the two masters "God" and "Mammon", with style and grace. Smiling all the way to the bank.

I hasten to add, in this i am not saying church members have not contributed positively to society, they have. While in apostacy and corrupting many of the teachings of Jesus. A few set out above...

The wonderful thing about "God", he don't hold no grudges! Churches can do a turn-around anytime. And do as Christ counselled the rich ruler, "...sell what you have...and come, follow me... be blessed as a peace maker who seeks after righteousness..." WOW!! IF ONLY!! Why not? Warm regards, Roger

Roger, you bring up some awesome points, and overall I have to agree with you. As a youngster, I was perplexed and quite bothered by the fact that it seemed many Christian churches were not espousing deep Christian values. And these days, the term "Christian Values" has been used as a blanket to cover a sort of rabid conservatism.

I saw a sticker in a store near where I used to work that said, "Hi, Jesus called. He wants his religion back." Makes me laugh each time I see it.

I think that many people who are deeply interested in a meaningful Christian walk are starting to see that not all is well in the Body of Christ. Hence the grassroots movement towards spirituality in place of religion. Religion is just rote and repitition. Spirituality encompasses much more.

But to answer Jersey Girl's question, I was taught that Christianity was an apostate religion. I was taught that in the missionary discussions using the dixie cups, and the whole making a pyramid thing, and taking out vital parts of it (revelation, prophets, etc.), and watching the pyramid fall. For a person who at the time didn't know to research, and didn't know much about my own beliefs, it was very convincing.

GIMR wrote:Roger, you bring up some awesome points, and overall I have to agree with you. As a youngster, I was perplexed and quite bothered by the fact that it seemed many Christian churches were not espousing deep Christian values. And these days, the term "Christian Values" has been used as a blanket to cover a sort of rabid conservatism.

I saw a sticker in a store near where I used to work that said, "Hi, Jesus called. He wants his religion back." Makes me laugh each time I see it.

I think that many people who are deeply interested in a meaningful Christian walk are starting to see that not all is well in the Body of Christ. Hence the grassroots movement towards spirituality in place of religion. Religion is just rote and repitition. Spirituality encompasses much more.

But to answer Jersey Girl's question, I was taught that Christianity was an apostate religion. I was taught that in the missionary discussions using the dixie cups, and the whole making a pyramid thing, and taking out vital parts of it (revelation, prophets, etc.), and watching the pyramid fall. For a person who at the time didn't know to research, and didn't know much about my own beliefs, it was very convincing.

Okay my question is can you still be spiritual yet be an atheist???

I say yes becasue I believe in Karma, sending out good ripples not bad...I believe that we are all connected to each other for whatever reason and that without workign together....our world is destined to fail

Possibly, but I don't know.

If you believe in a force higher than yourself, then you aren't really athiest. Your diety just isn't personafied.

Perhaps you're agnostic...

Karma's a mother...indeed.

Roger Morrison wrote:Hi Jersey Girl, i just addressed the exact same question over on "Mormon Think Tank"??? Ya might wanna check it out...

However, to the question: in my seriously considered opinion (IMSCO) "YES", all Christianism, and that includes LDSism, and i am a TBM--Truth-Based-Mormon--is so far off the mark that Jesus drew in the sand--recall the adultress story--as to have little identity to what HE introduced by the "...two new commandments..."!

Let he who has no sin cast the first stone. Yet the stones fly, especially in church Courts of Love.

Nor have i found any that REALLY practice many of HIS admonitions...

"Prayer"... secretly; with FEW words when publicly; needn't "ask" cuz "God" knows needs; for your enemies (that a spiritual bond may be extended towards peace and goodwill)... I respectfully suggest personal/group prayer is to change the prayer's attitude, not "God's"...

Hmmm... and yet the True Order of Prayer is taught in a group setting, with participants and watchers and lots and lots of words. The irony...

IMSCO, "God" as Jesus taught is not influenced by acts irrelevant to the Universe, or by pleas of intervention. Such behaviour is a primitive's understanding of a human-like-god who can be bribed and cajoled as a child by manipulative parents. Like who's in charge here? Nor does "He" have favourites. Nor does "He" fight battles or win wars...

Nor does he find keys or care about the number of earring holes. And he's not at worried at the whole 10% thing. Again, the irony....

"Seek not after treasures that rust..." What Christian establishment church REALLY teaches that? What Christian establishment church REALLY demonstrates that?

Or billion dollar malls. Or half billion dollar great and spacious buildings. Oh wait. It's built of granite; it's not going to rust, even with a waterfall on its roof.

"Greatest to serve (not master) the less gifted..." What Christian establishment church REALLY instructs to that end?

All those local leaders, bishops, stake presidents... from among the poor?

"Charity never faileth..." What Christian establishment church REALLY teaches, and demonstrates that principle?

What never fails is a call for more tithing, right about now, just prior to tithing settlement.

"Forgiveness, not retribution, is the essence of Christ's ideals for living..." What Christian establishment church does not have a ritualized process of "repentance"? Christ in his 3 years of teaching and mingling with his people never suggested such a "process". To the adultress, he simply said, "...neither do I condemn thee, go and sin no more..." Some churches are more charitable in such circumstances. All should be to set a truly Christ-like standard of human relations.

Interestingly, such empathy is often much to the chagrin of more orthodox sects that demand their pond of flesh by 'shunning', 'disfellowshiping', 'excommunication' etc. Such punitive measures are Old Testament and cultural corruptions, little to do with Jesus.

Courts of Love. Bishop's interviews. TRI. And yet for the really bad sins (cheating the poor and the widowed, hating neighbors, unkindness, etc.) there is no discipline.

IF there is an accounting, a judgement bar, as Establishment Christian churches claim, church Leaders will find themselves with out much reward in Heaven. They've "had their reward" as Jesus so often said about the Scribes, Pharasees, and hypocrites of his day... They didn't know "God"!

One of the few consolations those of us in the trenches have.

To that might well be added, post Jesus, they taught not my New Commandments, but continued the Old ways of greed, hate, prejudice, war and injustice...

How can there be honest denial of how ineffective Establishment Christianism has been in shaping society in comparison to Science and Capitalism. Churches' major success has been accomodating the apostacy and corruptions while themselves serving the two masters "God" and "Mammon", with style and grace. Smiling all the way to the bank.

Business and politics. Both hand in hand with corruption. Both ignore the poor. Both worship the Almighty Dollar.

I hasten to add, in this i am not saying church members have not contributed positively to society, they have. While in apostacy and corrupting many of the teachings of Jesus. A few set out above...

For their own enrichment, their own glory, their own egos.

The wonderful thing about "God", he don't hold no grudges! Churches can do a turn-around anytime. And do as Christ counselled the rich ruler, "...sell what you have...and come, follow me... be blessed as a peace maker who seeks after righteousness..." WOW!! IF ONLY!! Why not? Warm regards, Roger

Christ still counsels the rich to give it all away, but what does one of the richest churches on earth do? We buy malls.

Wow Harmony, you put it out there.

OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:

GIMR wrote:Roger, you bring up some awesome points, and overall I have to agree with you. As a youngster, I was perplexed and quite bothered by the fact that it seemed many Christian churches were not espousing deep Christian values. And these days, the term "Christian Values" has been used as a blanket to cover a sort of rabid conservatism.

I saw a sticker in a store near where I used to work that said, "Hi, Jesus called. He wants his religion back." Makes me laugh each time I see it.

I think that many people who are deeply interested in a meaningful Christian walk are starting to see that not all is well in the Body of Christ. Hence the grassroots movement towards spirituality in place of religion. Religion is just rote and repitition. Spirituality encompasses much more.

But to answer Jersey Girl's question, I was taught that Christianity was an apostate religion. I was taught that in the missionary discussions using the dixie cups, and the whole making a pyramid thing, and taking out vital parts of it (revelation, prophets, etc.), and watching the pyramid fall. For a person who at the time didn't know to research, and didn't know much about my own beliefs, it was very convincing.

Okay my question is can you still be spiritual yet be an atheist???

I say yes becasue I believe in Karma, sending out good ripples not bad...I believe that we are all connected to each other for whatever reason and that without workign together....our world is destined to fail

GIMR, i agree. Religion is a poor substitute for Spirituality. A fact, that as you say more folks are concluding. Which does account for the more saavy churches move to a more folksy format that engages all senses, rather than the old-school model: "sit-up, shut-up and face da front!" Still very much the LDS model. With exceptions of course. Depending on the mental-emotional-spiritual-intellectual make-up of the group...

You are correct the Missionaries did a job on "...other Churches..." Unfortunately, the mote was in their eye. I never questioned their Christianism so, IMSCO they are a major participant in the Great Apostacy. Like, "put yer own house in order first..."

Out-a-Misery, you ask, "...can you be spiritual yet be an atheist???" Yes, for the reasons you suggest. And, i believe because we came into the world born with a spiritual capacity, as well as physical capacities. I think all such human elements/capacities begin as seeds.

As such they are subject to our 'nature'. Were we born with an overflowing abundance of natural good-stuff or with a short-supply? AND, more important, "nature"--'born-withs' are subject to "nurture"--'born intos'. In both situations it is, in the beginning, absolute LUCK that determines our capacities and incapacities.

How we develop physically, and intellectually depends upon our efforts to do so. And is obvious to any onlooker. How we develop emotionally and spiritually is far more influenced by what others expose us to in our beginning days and years. Did they polish us up, or grind us down?

Does this take responsibility away from us? Not at all, unless we are dysfuncional to the point of being institutionalized. Signed in by others, or entering ourselves into institutions that will help our positive development. Religion is one of those "institutions". "AA" does the same for others... Didn't mean to rammble, just part of my dysfunction...

Anyway, IMSCO spirituality has more to do with finding one's self than by finding "God" in any church. IF ya REALLY look ya find "IT" (life's positive force) in relationships. How successful one is in working with "IT" is manifest by their relationships--with themselves AND others. Atheists are as capacity dependent as Theists... Enough already...Roger