Interesting...

Post by **_Bryan Inks** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:25 am

I don't know if which of you, if any post or read over at Postmormon.org but there is a rather interesting thread going on right now.

CLICKY

"Twtisr" brings to the table some interesting questions that are not easily answered to those that aren't in the "clique".

I'm interested to see other's takes on this.

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:41 pm

Bryan, Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I liked its "Home Page" 'spirit'. I'm sure it serves a valuable service... Warm regards, Roger

Post by **_Mister Scratch** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 8:20 pm

A couple of thoughts. One: my initial read on "twistr" is that he's a troll. Two: He is dead wrong if he thinks that exmos are the only ones writing antagonistic things on the Web. I would refer him to the fittingly named MAD board, and advise him to head straight for the posts of Pahoran, juliann, and DCP. Tell him to read for a couple of hours and report back.

Post by **_Bryan Inks** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:22 pm

Roger Morrison wrote:Bryan, Thanks for the link. Very interesting. I liked its "Home Page" 'spirit'. I'm sure it serves a valuable service... Warm regards, Roger

I personally believe that the PostMormon.org community serves a pretty good cause.

The moderators/admins have worked really hard to try and keep things in a tame manner. I enjoy the flavour of content over there on occassion.

PostMormon isn't so much for debate as other boards. It is primarily designed as a support group network for those of us either already out or on the way.

Mr. Scratch wrote:A couple of thoughts. One: my initial read on "twistr" is that he's a troll. Two: He is dead wrong if he thinks that exmos are the only ones writing antagonistic things on the Web. I would refer him to the fittingly named MAD board, and advise him to head straight for the posts of Pahoran, juliann, and DCP. Tell him to read for a couple of hours and report back.

I also thought that twistr was a troll. But I usually will give most people benifit of the doubt for a while.

As for 2: Ewww. I wouldn't do that to someone I hated.

XD

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:10 pm

Mister Scratch wrote:A couple of thoughts. One: my initial read on "twistr" is that he's a troll. Two: He is dead wrong if he thinks that exmos are the only ones writing antagonistic things on the Web. I would refer him to the fittingly named MAD board, and advise him to head straight for the posts of Pahoran, juliann, and DCP. Tell him to read for a couple of hours and report back.

Please, scratch my ignorance: Who is "MAD" ;-) & whats 'his' # after www.??? It too sounds interesting... A "troll"? Even they can learn something, or other readers can't help but see another side/facet of the jewel... Roger :-)

Post by **_Mister Scratch** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:27 pm

Roger Morrison wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:A couple of thoughts. One: my initial read on "twistr" is that he's a troll. Two: He is dead wrong if he thinks that exmos are the only ones writing antagonistic things on the Web. I would refer him to the fittingly named MAD board, and advise him to head straight for the posts of Pahoran, juliann, and DCP. Tell him to read for a couple of hours and report back.

Please, scratch my ignorance: Who is "MAD" ;-) & whats 'his' # after www.??? It too sounds interesting... A "troll"? Even they can learn something, or other readers can't help but see another side/facet of the jewel... Roger :-)

My pleasure, Roger! "MAD" is an acronym for "Mormon Apologetics and Discussion." It is, according to some, a new incarnation of the old, ironically named FAIRmessageboard. You can find it at: www.mormonapologetics.org

I agree that reading MAD is an eye-opening experience, which probably at least partly explains why FAIR ended its relationship with the messageboard.

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:59 pm

I read the post as well, and I think twistr had some honest questions in the beginning, but yeah, the word "troll" started coming to mind as I read subsequent posts. This person is either a troll, an investigator who is being told we exmos are all evil, or someone just looking for a box to perch on.

I think out of every exmo here, I have the least "attachments". I was the only member in my family, and the only LDS connections I have now are through friends. But I still have painful memories like everyone else. I still feel duped with regards to certain things. I'm angry at the three-and-a-half years of agony I put myself through trying to go back and cut my soul away to fit in the TBM mold, just so I could say I had a place to belong. The ideas I learned about myself, the emotional trauma I let my local leaders put me through over trivial things, and the snotty, religiously superior attitudes of the young LDS I went to church with are things I shall never forget.

I don't often attach the name "Mormon" to myself anymore. Short of the people I love who are LDS, I try not to think in depth about the church anymore. Makes my head hurt. I almost got talked to going to a wedding in SLC that took place today. I hope the couple is happy, but I really wasn't in the mood for a long missionary session with the new wife. Another story, another time. Really sickly amusing story of what the young woman tried to do when I (reluctantly) tried to explain to her my issues with cultural ignorance in the church. Embarassing, too.

Twistr is speaking from ignorance, and I hope in time he or she will see.

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:44 am

Hi GIMR, from your post:

I'm angry at the three-and-a-half years of agony I put myself through trying to go back and cut my soul away to fit in the TBM mold, just so I could say I had a place to belong. The ideas I learned about myself, the emotional trauma I let my local leaders put me through over trivial things, and the snotty, religiously superior attitudes of the young LDS I went to church with are things I shall never forget.

Sorry for your bad experience and its pain. Not at all like ours in small-town Canada. Where it might be different now??

IF or when you feel so inclined i would like to know what your "local leaders put you through over trivials, ... the snotty...attitudes, etc..." At your discretion of course... Warm regards, Roger

Post by **_Sam Harris** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:10 am

Hello Roger,

Thanks for the well wishes. I understand that the makeup of wards is different depending on where you go. I personally have a fondness for Vegas Mormons, they tend to be a lot more laid back. A friend of mine sings with Gladys' choir, and hanging with those folks, I felt like I could be human. And I told them so.

The ward I was baptized into actually had a REPUTATION for being the most snotty ward on the east coast. It was a ward full of DC interns and folks who had started out here as such. People who had cushy Hill jobs, or worked for big firms in the city. Lots of money. 95% of these folks came from Utah, and they brought their cultural oddities with them. Other wards that I've been to with the exception of one branch all seem to be competing to be SLC's finest transplant, but this place took the cake.

When I was baptized, I was at a point (and sometimes I still am, I just don't care much anymore) where I didn't get much encouragement or support from family. I needed a family situation, a place to belong. So I bought all the fake smiles and the "you have such a sweet spirit" comments (well, I do, but those folks never got to know me well enough to verify this) at first. It all fell away the first time I went inactive. It was then I found out who my true friends were. I keep my LDS contacts to a minimum out here, I cannot stand these fake people. I trust only the friends I've retained these five years.

That ward was so proud of itself. Singles ward with 40 marriages a year. Best temple attendance in the stake. So righteous, so righteous, so righteous. You should have seen them during fast and testimony meeting, it was like a contest to see who had the best life and family. Of course it was all ok, so long as you were saying how grateful you were. All I could ever give thanks for was God, I don't have much of a family. So suffice to say, I hated F&T meetings.

With regards to the race issues, the first eye opener was someone pointing to an African man and telling me "there's someone you can date". What the hell was wrong with all those white men I had been attending church with? From that came comments about "velcro-y" hair, and being on message boards where young men wanted to justify use of the word "n*gger" because they had heard black people use it. If you don't hear it come out of my mouth, then it's not safe for it to come out of your mouth towards me. Plain and simple.

The biggest disappointment was the fact that I could practically taste the fear of some of my LDS counterparts, especially the men. Like I said, most of these folks came from UT where apparently there aren't many of us black folk around. All these kids apparently knew was what they saw on TV, and that doesn't always put forth the proper image.

I'm an attractive young woman, I'm in school, I work hard, I have a lot going for me. And I now have a man who cares for me. Outside of the church I have never had a problem attracting men. In fact, at times they just won't go away. But in the church, I could be standing next to a white girl who had just moved into the ward, and a white guy would come up to her, talk to her, and barely give me a glance, me who had been there for a while, knew dude's name, etc. Some of them wouldn't even meet my eye when they spoke to me. I evemtually realized that all this praise I was being given (my sweet spirit and all) was empty, and most of those folks didn't want to get to know me outside of sunday. Especially the men. And that was the hardest thing, sitting in a place that spoke of families being forever, and not even knowing if I could have one. I used to cry every time I went near the DC temple and saw a bride coming out of it. I figured that wouldn't ever be me. And the verification I got of that was a friend who apparently loves everything about me, and feels so comfortable with me, used to hold me and kiss me on the forehead, hold my hand, be all affectionate...and he went and chose for his potential mate everything I could not be, white, virgin, and born in the church. The perfect Mormon girl. I almost fell apart at that...then I got smart and fell out of love with him. We're just friends now, and he's single again. Well, he missed out on a good thing. I almost stayed Mormon, complete with my doubts for him.

When the priesthood ban issue came up, I had questions naturally. My questions were met with character defamation. There was something intrinsically wrong with me because I couldn't just shut up and derive a testimony from the story of Elijah Abel, or the part of Jane Manning James' story that the church is comfortable with telling (not the part about her being denied access to the temple in her life after going all that way with the LDS to Utah). Something was wrong with me because I couldn't see God's hand in all of this. And how was I supposed to raise children of color in a church that had issues such as these?

Not to mention the whole law of chastity bit. I'm sorry, but my sexuality is ultimately my responsibility. Compared to my family I've done good. I'm 25 and have never concieved, I believe in bringing children into a stable home, not just procreating because someone convinced me that "I love you" is an acceptable form of birth control. I really resented having to report to another human being, and a man at that about my sexual history. I once decided when living in GA, to try to go back to the temple. Which meant I had to repent of being with someone during a bout of inactivity. I had to go and confess a "sin" that had happened a year ago, and be denied sacrament based on this man's discretion, despite the fact that I had already made peace with God over it. God had nothing to do with that situation, the bishop and his handbook did.

I volleyed back and forth for about three years, until I found FAIR. What I went through there was the turning point. I got my name removed (though my local ward still knows about me), and to be honest I'm glad. My friends who are LDS, that is their decision. I don't talk about mine with them much. We look to common ground and move forward, and it works.

Post by **_Roger Morrison** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:44 pm

Hi GIMR, thanks for your bio-bit. Not a nice story. Wisdom comes one disillusionment at a time. You, as most, are smarter now than ever before. You say:

I personally have a fondness for Vegas Mormons, they tend to be a lot more laid back. A friend of mine sings with Gladys' choir, and hanging with those folks, I felt like I could be human. And I told them so.

A less sheltered--in the valley--life, can't help but broaden a person. The Pharisees were very critical of Jesus' "broadnes", yet strictured Christianism tends to narowness...the narrow-road mythology. Seems you have friends in right-places :-)

When I was baptized, I was at a point (and sometimes I still am, I just don't care much anymore) where I didn't get much encouragement or support from family. I needed a family situation, a place to belong. So I bought all the fake smiles and the "you have such a sweet spirit" comments (well, I do, but those folks never got to know me well enough to verify this) at first. It all fell away the first time I went inactive. It was then I found out who my true friends were. I keep my LDS contacts to a minimum out here, I cannot stand these fake people. I trust only the friends I've retained these five years

Seems you were a perfect candidate. Ya can't sell a Ford to someone who's happy and satisfied with a Chevy. As a RM x-Mo stated to me, "when you're drowing and someone throws you a life-ring, you don't stop to inspect it for flaws."

Reality isn't always warm and fuzzie. Nor is it always harsh and/or cruel. Over the years i have come to appreciate the covert-honesty in which folks overtly reveal themselves. To which i inwardly say, "thank you very much for teaching me about yourself." That older-wiser thing.

The biggest disappointment was the fact that I could practically taste the fear of some of my LDS counterparts, especially the men. Like I said, most of these folks came from UT where apparently there aren't many of us black folk around. All these kids apparently knew was what they saw on TV, and that doesn't always put forth the proper image.

"Where fear is, faith isn't." While many religious types in most sects like to think of themselves as living by faith; truth be known they live more by fear... Consider why most Christianize--for themselves--to be saved from their "fears"... One of my negative observations about traditional, establishment Judeo-Christianism is its difficulty to keep pace with social reality. So the knowledge void is filled with misinformation from other indiscriminating sources... Cold reality!

I'm an attractive young woman, I'm in school, I work hard, I have a lot going for me. And I now have a man who cares for me. Outside of the church I have never had a problem attracting men. In fact, at times they just won't go away. But in the church, I could be standing next to a white girl who had just moved into the ward, and a white guy would come up to her, talk to her, and barely give me a glance, me who had been there for a while, knew dude's name, etc. Some of them wouldn't even meet my eye when they spoke to me. I evemtually realized that all this praise I was being given (my sweet spirit and all) was empty, and most of those folks didn't want to get to know me outside of sunday. Especially the men. And that was the hardest thing, sitting in a place that spoke of families being forever, and not even knowing if I could have one. I used to cry every time I went near the DC temple and saw a bride coming out of it. I figured that wouldn't ever be me. And the verification I got of that was a friend who apparently loves everything about me, and feels so comfortable with me, used to hold me and kiss me on the forehead, hold my hand, be all affectionate...and he went and chose for his potential mate everything I could not be, white, virgin, and born in the church. The perfect Mormon girl. I almost fell apart at that...then I got smart and fell out of love with him. We're just friends now, and he's single again. Well, he missed out on a good thing. I almost stayed Mormon, complete with my doubts for him.

His loss! Fear and ignorance maintain the red-neck mentality on every level. Social ineptness must be seen as a matter that reveals individual learning, conditioning, their sense of self and perceived vulernability. It is an absolute absurdity that "Virginity/chastity" has been seen as the ultimate character question. What about honesty, integrity, empathy, kindness, compassion. etc?

One could pass the chastity test and be a most mean spirited person, and a failure in their role of companion, spouse or parent. And, what makes GIMR think all Molly Mormons are "Virgins"???

Your LDS experience is unfortunate. Their GIMR experience is one they will be accontable for "IF..." You have 2007 ahead of You... That IS what REALLY matters! Warm regards, Roger