DiscussMormonism.com

QUOTE(gitxsanartist @ Jan 7 2007, 12:34 PM)
In the meantime the curriculum of the church is constructed as to either minimize or eliminate most of these issues. Boyd K. Packer admonished certain BYU faculty

I think it vitally important to be precise about who the audience were. Unless I'm mistaken, you're referring to Elder Packer's talk given at the Fifth Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium, on 22 August 1981. The talk was entitled "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect." It was given on the campus of Brigham Young University, but it was given to employees of the Church Education System -- that is, to teachers in seminaries, institutes, and, perhaps (though I'm not at all certain of this), members of the College of Religious Instruction at BYU. It was not given to historians, or to the faculty in general.

Why is this important? It seems to me that people who are hired by the Church and entrusted by the Church with the religious education of its young people have a different obligation than do historians, as such. What the Church does with its curriculum is and ought to be different, it seems to me, than what the American Historical Society, Western Division, does at its symposia.

( http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=20921 )

Now let's take a look at the speech itself.

"The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect" was delivered at the 5th Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium, on August 22nd in 1981. Prior to this, Mormon History had been enjoying what some have called its "Camelot Era" under the guidance of historians like Leonard Arrington. Some of the Brethren, however, did not like this free-wheeling examination of church history, and Elder Packer was among them.

Very early on, the talk says this:

Quote:
It is an easy thing for a man with extensive academic training to measure the Church using the principles he has been taught in his professional training as his standard. In my mind it ought to be the other way around. A member of the Church ought always, particularly if he is pursuing extensive academic studies, to judge the professions of man against the revealed word of the Lord.

Already, we are being set up by Packer to place the church ahead of all other things: to do whatever the church tells us to do, and implicitly to ignore what academic disciplines might have to tell us. Next he goes on to describe a scenario in which he advises a "personable, clean-cut, very intelligent young Latter-day Saint" on how to successfully defend his dissertation. Really, the passage points to something Packer alludes to throughout the talk: that there is a power struggle going on between the Brethren, and the academy---a struggle which receives further attention in Packer's "Talk to the All-Church Coordinating Council" in the early 1990s. The anecdote wraps up with Packer dismissing the acadmeic point of view via the title of the talk itself: "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect."

What follows is a very telling passage:

Quote:
I must not be too critical of those professors [who evaluated the above-mentioned student's dissertation]. They do not know of the things of the Spirit. One can understand their position. It is another thing, however, when we consider members of the Church, particularly those who hold the priesthood and have made covenants in the temple. Many do not do as my associate did; rather, they capitulate, cross over the line, and forsake the things of the Spirit. Thereafter they judge the Church, the doctrine, and the leadership by the standards of their academic profession.

This is significant, because it establishes a hierarchy of knowledge and judgment. Elder Packer is arguing that the Brethren--and by extension, correlated church publications---trump everything else. According to Packer, the work of a professional historian must be seen as pale in comparison to, say, Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young.

For Ben and others, the next passage, in my view, obliterates the apologetic claim that Packer's remarks weren't intended for the ears of historians:

Quote:
This problem has affected some of those who have taught and have written about the history of the Church. These professors say of themselves that religious faith has little influence on Mormon scholars. They say this because, obviously, they are not simply Latter-day Saints but are also intellectuals trained, for the most part, in secular institutions. They would that some historians who are Latter-day Saints write history as they were taught in graduate school, rather than as Mormons.

(emphasis added.)

Once more, Packer is asserting that history as it is presented in church-sanctioned materials is to be paid greater creedence and attention than material written by historians. Presumably, one would have to include a text such as Rough Stone Rolling in the latter category.

( LINK To Post on Thread. )

Brackite wrote:DCP:
I think it vitally important to be precise about who the audience were. Unless I'm mistaken, you're referring to Elder Packer's talk given at the Fifth Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium, on 22 August 1981. The talk was entitled "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect." It was given on the campus of Brigham Young University, but it was given to employees of the Church Education System -- that is, to teachers in seminaries, institutes, and, perhaps (though I'm not at all certain of this), members of the College of Religious Instruction at BYU. It was not given to historians, or to the faculty in general.

Brackite wrote:Hi There,

The Chief LDS Apologist Daniel C. Peterson has written and Posted a Message on the MA&D Board in response to another Poster concerning Elder Boyd K. Packer's talk titled, '"The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect." Here is what he wrote:

DCP:

QUOTE(gitxsanartist @ Jan 7 2007, 12:34 PM)
In the meantime the curriculum of the church is constructed as to either minimize or eliminate most of these issues. Boyd K. Packer admonished certain BYU faculty

I think it vitally important to be precise about who the audience were. Unless I'm mistaken, you're referring to Elder Packer's talk given at the Fifth Annual Church Educational System Religious Educators' Symposium, on 22 August 1981. The talk was entitled "The Mantle Is Far, Far Greater Than The Intellect." It was given on the campus of Brigham Young University, but it was given to employees of the Church Education System -- that is, to teachers in seminaries, institutes, and, perhaps (though I'm not at all certain of this), members of the College of Religious Instruction at BYU. It was not given to historians, or to the faculty in general.

Why is this important? It seems to me that people who are hired by the Church and entrusted by the Church with the religious education of its young people have a different obligation than do historians, as such. What the Church does with its curriculum is and ought to be different, it seems to me, than what the American Historical Society, Western Division, does at its symposia.

( http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=20921 )

DCP's remarks are the usual song-and-dance provided by apologists on this subject. They try and claim that A) the talk is somehow "limited" in its meaning, due to the audience (an argument which totally overlooks the fact that the speech was later published, not to mention the material cited by Rollo), and B) that it is not the Church's job to teach honest history.

Frankly, I think that B) is the better argument, but of course that would entail the Church having to admit that it's not entirely honest.

harmony wrote:What I want to know is: if it's not the church's job to teach honest church history, whose job is it to do that? If they don't do it, the anti's will.