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A somewhat funny discussion regarding Nephite pottery over on the fittingly named MADboard, in which Beastie utterly stomped Brant Garnder's tendentious argument. The gist of the discussion has to do with whether or not Lehi & Co. would have brought "pottery technology" (which, according to Bro. Gardner, is pretty sophisticated) along with them to the New World. The more hardcore apologists say, "No," which helps to explain why all archaeological pottery findings are consistent with New World---as opposed to Israelite---pottery making skills.

Beastie's basic claim, as I understand it, is that the Nephites, with their advanced, God-influenced knowledge of such skills as metal smelting, would have had the rudimentary skills necessary to produce superior pottery (which has not been found in MesoAmerica.) What follows is a sampling of Gardner's silly counter assertions:

Brant Gardner wrote:Lehi and his family were wealthy city-dwellers. While there would have been an established pottery style (with available imported alternatives) none of Lehi's family were potters. They purchased their pottery.

Move that non-pottery-making clan to the New World and what can you expect? They don't know the local clays. They don't know how to fire the pots. They don't know how to construct them. There are two ways that they might acquire pottery, assuming that whatever they brought with them would eventually break and require replacement.

They made it or they bought it.

If they made it, someone had to teach them. What style and method would be taught? Obviously, the indigenous style and method.

If they bought it, what style would the creator of the pot have used? Obviously, the indigenous style and method.

An interesting counterargument, to be sure. Of course, as is to be expected, Bro. Gardner utterly rejects the "they made it" hypothesis, which is problematic, as Beastie points out:

Beastie wrote:Groups that migrate to areas quite different than their homeland still manage to retain enough traditions from their homeland that archaeologists can detect their presence. Both the Old World and Mesoamerica made pottery. Are you suggesting that the native materials would be so different that it would be impossible for the Nephites to continue making pots in their own tradition?

How does Gardner respond? By changing the subject, of course!

Brant Gardner wrote:The critical issue is how one is defining a "group." You have defined it generically and since any "group" is a "group," you are assuming general rules. You aren't thinking about the size or composition in your analysis.

Uh, unless I'm mistaken, the "critical issue" (by Gardner's own previous post) is over whether or not the Nephites were capable of making pottery. It turns out that the Nephites (according to the Book of Mormon) were skilled at a whole panoply of tasks. Here's Beastie again:

beastie wrote:you assert that since the Lehites were rich they wouldn't make pottery. I responded by reminding you that the Dever book addressed far more than pottery, and your assertion that they wouldn't use any of their old ways is directly contradicted by the Book of Mormon itself. 2 Nephi 5:

13 And it came to pass that we began to prosper exceedingly, and to multiply in the land.
14 And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.
15 And I did teach my people to build buildings, and to work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores, which were in great abundance.
16 And I, Nephi, did build a temple; and I did construct it after the manner of the temple of Solomon save it were not built of so many precious things; for they were not to be found upon the land, wherefore, it could not be built like unto Solomon’s temple. But the manner of the construction was like unto the temple of Solomon; and the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine.
17 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did cause my people to be industrious, and to labor with their hands.

So, Brant, are you asserting that the Lehites knew how to engage in all the craft listed here, but knew nothing about pottery? And are you asserting that the issue is pottery alone? And by challenging me to demonstrate "how" they made their pottery, are you asserting that it would be impossible to make pottery (or other items, see above) in the tradition of the Old World in the New World? If so, why?

Here's some more fun and games from Brant:

Brant Gardner wrote:Actually, it wasn't addressed at all. The question is who in Lehi's group could possibly have been a potter? By Lehi's time, this was specialized knowledge. People purchased pots in the city, they didn't make them. While someone might have specialized in metals, that in no way qualified them to know how to make pottery. I have several arcane skills, but there is no way that I would recognize the proper material to even begin to make a pot.

Lehi's group was too small, and came from the wrong background to assume that they would be capable of transferring pot-making technology. You can theorize about what other groups might have done, but the groups have to be large enough to have potters in them.

Your suggestion that Nephi had to know how to make pots because he knew about metals is unsupportable for the same reason that you cannot suggest that because someone knows how to make pots that they necessarily know how to work metals.

Except, of course, that working with metal is the more advanced of the related technologies. Someone who knows how to ride a bicycle is likely to know how to ride a tricycle.

Brant Gardner wrote:Let's use a simple example. I come from a much more technically advanced society. What are the chances that I could tell anyone a better way to make a pot? Hint - I couldn't tell them anything about it.

My culture could. I can't. The problem isn't what was available in the Old World. The problem is what a particular set of people, limited in size as the group was, and limited in their cultural experience as they had to have been (given their described social position) could have brought with them.

They could bring a pot. There is no indication of any ability that they brought an understanding of how to make one.

Well, there you have it: because Bro. Gardner doesn't know how to make pottery, nobody else does! for what it's worth, it can't be that difficult, can it? I.e., you mold some clay, and then cook it in a hot fire... Right? What's so difficult about that?

Anyways, Beastie seals up this coffin with the following:

beastie wrote:Now perhaps you can argue that the Nephite group was too small for us to find the evidence that they did not abandon their past material traditions completely, but the problem is that the Book of Mormon tells us Nephi became the leader of a significant Mesoamerican polity, and taught them material crafts.

So you're going to have to go with Charity's vote, and state, more or less, that God, being incomprehensible to human beings, chose to inspire Nephi to "teach" his people how to do things they - the native Mesoamerican "others", and everyone around them, were already doing and already knew how to do (and would actually have had to teach NEPHI), and inspired Nephi to not teach his people any Old World methods, even if they produced more desirable materials.

Or maybe he just didn't want to get his fingernails dirty.

(emphasis ibid)

Lol... Man, Beastie has been picking them off over there like ducks in a row! Poor Brant, he never had a chance. At least he has the gumption to bow out gracefully (as opposed to, say, having the mods shut down the thread immediately after he gets in a final post):

Brant Gardner wrote:I am not ignoring the point. They are qualitatively different. Contrary to your assertion, there is much more to making pottery than fire. This discussion is clearly not going to move forward, so I'll bow out.

Bless your soul, Brant, and better luck next time.

Oh dear....

On and on it goes.

Regardless of how every other archaeologist, anthropologist, linguist, scientist, biologist, and any other specialist presents the reality of Mesoamerican life, they are all wrong, they do not know what they are talking about, they are Satan followers, they are stupid, they are whatever. :-(

And anyone who doesn't understand the Book of Mormon in the way it is really meant to be understood is stupid. Of course there were people there, they just hid their culture, their technology, their language, their calendars, their inventions, their knowledge, etc. etc. etc. Yes, they were part of the larger society but kept their religion secret for a thousand years. The writers of the Book of Mormon were just taking literary license, or exaggerating, or uninformed, or whatever. Joseph Smith just had a superficial understanding of the Book of Mormon.

Anyone who doesn't "get" it just isn't smart enough to get it all figured out like Brant. :-( I like Brant but his mantra of everyone else is stupid, get tiresome.

Ahhh it is exasperating!

As I've stated many times before..... give the Book of Mormon to any expert in the world and none of them would even remotely suggest it is of Mesoamerican origin. It just plain doesn't fit in any sense of the world. Those who are trying to make it fit are altering it so badly as to competely rewrite the book.

It is why more and more people are going with the inspired fiction, or myth idea. It is the only way to save it.

~dancer~

truth dancer wrote:Oh dear....

On and on it goes.

Regardless of how every other archaeologist, anthropologist, linguist, scientist, biologist, and any other specialist presents the reality of Mesoamerican life, they are all wrong, they do not know what they are talking about, they are Satan followers, they are stupid, they are whatever. :-(

And anyone who doesn't understand the Book of Mormon in the way it is really meant to be understood is stupid. Of course there were people there, they just hid their culture, their technology, their language, their calendars, their inventions, their knowledge, etc. etc. etc. Yes, they were part of the larger society but kept their religion secret for a thousand years. The writers of the Book of Mormon were just taking literary license, or exaggerating, or uninformed, or whatever. Joseph Smith just had a superficial understanding of the Book of Mormon.

Anyone who doesn't "get" it just isn't smart enough to get it all figured out like Brant. :-( I like Brant but his mantra of everyone else is stupid, get tiresome.

Ahhh it is exasperating!

Actually, this time he was arguing exactly the opposite: he was claiming that, since he was too ignorant to know how to make pottery, then it follows that the Lehites would have been, too.

LOL...

These threads make me dizzy.

We have no evidence of metal work, although there is clear claims in the Book of Mormon, so the excuse is we just haven't found it, or metal really means wood, or whatever.

We have no evidence of old world pottery, so the excuse is they stopped using that technology because they didn't really know how to make pots.

We have no evidence of horses, the excuse is we haven't found them yet, or they were really tapirs.

We have no evidence of the calendars described in detail in the Book of Mormon, the excuse is they were hidden and only a few people knew about them.

So basically, if it is written in the Book of Mormon then the excuse for not finding anything is it was hidden or it is something other than what it says.

For all other things one would expect to find from the Old World, if it was NOT specifically written in the Book of Mormon then the excuse is, it was forgotten.

For all the things we would expect to find in the Book of Mormon that would provide some evidence of a Mesoamerican origin, but is not there, the excuse is that it was not important.

No problem i guess.

:-)
~dancer~

Brant's problem is exacerbated by the fact that the Nephites weren't the only Old World immigrants to Mesoamerica.

Not only were there Nephites who would've/should've had pottery-making skills, but there were Jaredites and Mulekites as well.

Fine, so Nephi didn't know how to make pottery. So where is the evidence of the proliferation of pottery-making skills those other Old World immigrants would've brought?

Comment and a question.

Scratch: Well, there you have it: because Bro. Gardner doesn't know how to make pottery, nobody else does! for what it's worth, it can't be that difficult, can it? I.e., you mold some clay, and then cook it in a hot fire... Right? What's so difficult about that?

Jersey Girl: Scratch making pottery is FAR more complicated than what you sophomorically suggest! My gosh, you have to dig the clay out of the ground first! THEN, you mold it and then the potter has to make a decision...bake it in a fire or let it dry in the sun. Please, do not insult our intelligence by reducing the process to molding and cooking! Sheesh!

;-)

Here is my question...if they didn't make pottery...what did they eat out of? Or did they simply just chew meat off of spears or something?

Except, of course, that working with metal is the more advanced of the related technologies. Someone who knows how to ride a bicycle is likely to know how to ride a tricycle.

Let's expand on that. It's not only which one is more advanced, but how technologies relate to each other on a tech tree.

http://www.unr.edu/sb204/geology/smelt.html

Smelting copper ore to separate the copper from copper minerals required a hotter fire than normal cooking fires. It also required easily melted copper-bearing ore minerals such as green malachite and blue azurite or purplish red cuprite. The hotter fire was known by some cultures already, due to the development of fired pottery in a kiln. Probably by accident, it was discovered that the blue or green or purplish stones could be reduced to liquid copper metal in a fire.

from wiki:

American Indians have never used enclosed kilns, so the pot was put in a shallow pit dug into the earth along with other unfired pottery, covered with wood and brush, and lit on fire where it would harden and heat to temperatures of 1400 degrees or more.

Pottery is just symbolic of the larger issue. Brant has been avoiding Dever's statement by over-focusing on pottery alone, but Dever's point is that immigrants don't just abandon their former material traditions when they relocate. (d'uh) The entire LGT is predicated upon the idea that we can't "find" the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica because the Nephites abandoned their former material culture and simply adopted, whole cloth, the Mesoamerican native material culture. That's why we have to "find" Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon, instead.

Whoops. According to Dever, that would be "unprecedented".

Or perhaps the Nephites didn't abandon their culture, but their numbers were too small to count. Whoops. The Book of Mormon clearly states Nephi taught his people, etc etc etc...

I actually used that Dever quote on another thread, but apparently they didn't notice how dangerous it was at the time. They're noticing now, hence, all the potting going on.

Yes, the larger issue is the one no one wants to face.

If this small little group of folks just merged into the rest of the culture, forgot everything they had learned, totally lost all their advanced skills (with the exception of metal working?), what in the world is going on in the Book of Mormon?

They merged into the culture of the day but the Book of Mormon clearly discusses Nephites and Lamanites in the millions. .

But even if this little group of people just faded into the rest of society and there is no evidence of anything from the Old World, it only accounts for half the problem. The other half of the issue is all the stuff in the Book of Mormon that clearly is not a part of Mesoamerica.

In other words, not only is there no evidence of the Old World in Mesoamerican archaeology, there are quite a few things in the Book of Mormon that cannot be explained away)

It just makes no sense.



~dancer~

No, it doesn't make sense.

These people doing their level best to defend the historicity of the Book of Mormon can put their intelligence to better use, in my opinion. I think it's time to embrace the pseudographia theory. Not that what I think matters one whit in the end, but it's becoming painful to see these contortions. And for what end? These people already believe in the Bible, which also contains pseudographia, and they can accept THAT as scripture.