Anger - What is it?

[_christopher]

I am angry because so many of the life decisions that I made we based on what is painfully obvious to me now, a lie (or series or lies). This goes to education, family, friendships, recreation, etc. (love your list sono_hito). Like a divorce with children, I will have to live with some of these decisions for the rest of my life. Though some were good decisions regardless, it was the fact they were made under false pretenses that makes me angry.

Chris <><

[_wenglund]

I am not sure what value there is in each side looking to justify their anger. Both will invariably consider their anger justified, and all this will accomplish is to encourage victimological fingerpointing and thus fomment more anger. It will simply serve to feed the cycle of anger.

Hi Wade! :) What if, instead of justifying the anger, it is both recognized and legitimized. I think that is the difference in success here.

If you are able to recognize your anger, then you can move on.

I could be wrong, but I have always considered anger to be, for the most part, self-evident. To my mind, its aversive nature makes it self-evident. In other words, I see it as inherently recognized. It is not unlike a headache. By its very nature, one typically recognizes that they have a headache.

Granted, the cause of the anger (particularly the root cause) may not be readily reognized, and so there may be some value in exploring it indepth (particularly if the anger is severe and prolonged). But I see that exploration as somewhat different from justifying anger, particularly in terms of how it is approached (the former entails investigative and evaluative questions, whereas the latter entails accusations, rationalizations, and finger-pointing).

The trick is not getting locked in that victim mode of being angry. Recognize you're angry. It's a legitimate anger for you. Now....how do you move on? What plans are you going to put in place to move beyond this?

This is the point where I think that Cognitive Behavior Therapy can be extremely helpful.

Just my two cents...from one armchair psychologist to another. LOL

Given that anger, by definition, can result from things that are imagined as well as real, and may at times be disproportional and even irrationally based, I hesitate to consider anger, per se, as necessarily "legitimate".

I also think that focusing "recognition" and "legitimacy" of anger may be directing attention to the wrong thing, and away from more areas that might better serve those who are angered. It is not unlike focusing on "recognizing" and "legitimizing" headaches, rather than devoting one's attention to finding ways to prevent and relieve the headache.

For angry people, though, I do think CBT may be extremely helpful in enabling them to prevent and relieve their anger.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Mister Scratch]

I am not sure what value there is in each side looking to justify their anger. Both will invariably consider their anger justified, and all this will accomplish is to encourage victimological fingerpointing and thus fomment more anger. It will simply serve to feed the cycle of anger.

Hi Wade! :) What if, instead of justifying the anger, it is both recognized and legitimized. I think that is the difference in success here.

If you are able to recognize your anger, then you can move on.

I could be wrong, but I have always considered anger to be, for the most part, self-evident. To my mind, its aversive nature makes it self-evident. In other words, I see it as inherently recognized. It is not unlike a headache. By its very nature, one typically recognizes that they have a headache.

Granted, the cause of the anger (particularly the root cause) may not be readily reognized, and so there may be some value in exploring it indepth (particularly if the anger is severe and prolonged). But I see that exploration as somewhat different from justifying anger, particularly in terms of how it is approached (the former entails investigative and evaluative questions, whereas the latter entails accusations, rationalizations, and finger-pointing).

The trick is not getting locked in that victim mode of being angry. Recognize you're angry. It's a legitimate anger for you. Now....how do you move on? What plans are you going to put in place to move beyond this?

This is the point where I think that Cognitive Behavior Therapy can be extremely helpful.

Just my two cents...from one armchair psychologist to another. LOL

Given that anger, by definition, can result from things that are imagined as well as real, and may at times be disproportional and even irrationally based, I hesitate to consider anger, per se, as necessarily "legitimate".

I also think that focusing "recognition" and "legitimacy" of anger may be directing attention to the wrong thing, and away from more areas that might better serve those who are angered. It is not unlike focusing on "recognizing" and "legitimizing" headaches, rather than devoting one's attention to finding ways to prevent and relieve the headache.

For angry people, though, I do think CBT may be extremely helpful in enabling them to prevent and relieve their anger.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You know what, Wade? I think you're right! As such, it is time for you to get over your anger by seeing, once and for all, that the Church has fouled up. Thus, you can get over your sense of being offended anytime someone voices criticism about your "most precious and dear" Church. Instead of you feeling hurt, you'll be able to say, "Hey, gee! This person has a point! The Church has screwed up!" And you will learn so much and feel so much better. What do you think?

[_Yoda]

I could be wrong, but I have always considered anger to be, for the most part, self-evident.

That's my point, Wade. I don't think it always necessarily is self-evident. I think a lot of times people walk around feeling depressed or out of sorts due to some type of devastation, whether real or imagined, and can't really pinpoint it as anger.

It is not unlike a headache. By its very nature, one typically recognizes that they have a headache.

It's interesting that you used this analogy, Wade. I'm a sufferer of hormonal migraine headaches. They are spontaneous, and have occurred since the birth of my second daughter.

I have had to actually learn over the years, how to recognize the headache, and when it is coming on. If I wait until the headache is full-force, my migraine medicine will not help me. I have to "catch it" before it reaches it's pique point, or I can be very sick for 1-2 days.

Now that I understand how to recognize my headache at the onslought, I can treat it. But before I was able to do that, I couldn't.

Also....whether your perception of the reason behind a person's anger is real or imagined, the point is, it is real to them.

If you marginalize the reason for their anger, they are not going to trust you with advice on how to help them to the next step...even if that advice is sound, which, frankly, I think it is. Taking ownership and control of your life is the only way you can move on from any traumatic situation. And, again, you may not perceive what that person is going through as traumatic, but it is traumatic to them.

Just food for thought as you launch your new website, Wade. ;) Is that still happening, by the way?

[_Yoda]

Bumping back to the top to hear Wade's response to my anaology. ;)

[_Mary]

Gods love is not conditional, that's why there are many levels to heaven.

Well if you put 'eternal progression' into the pot, then that muddies the waters on this view a little Gazelam...

Also...

On Gods love not being conditional...

Hmmm wonder how your statement ties in with this:

"Whoever is without love does not know God, for God is love." [1 John 4:8 ]

I always understood Mormon theology to encompass the idea that God's love was indeed unconditional, but that he could not love any act, thought or behaviour that would lead us away from love. Maybe I'm wrong.

[_Gazelam]

Lets try this. A Father has Cancer and is going to die, he has 8 children, who of coarce he loves equally well.

This Fatehr has responsibilities that need to be passed on to someone. Now there are the children who took an interest in the family bussiness and involved themselves in the work, and there are those who had other interests and followed their own path.

When the will is read, who do you think will receive all that the father had? Who do oyu think would be given the oportunity to step into the Fathers shoes? Does this mean that he loved the other children less? How hurt do you think those that did not receive an inheritance of the responsibilities feel? Does it really matter how they feel about it?

[_wenglund]

I am angry because so many of the life decisions that I made we based on what is painfully obvious to me now, a lie (or series or lies). This goes to education, family, friendships, recreation, etc. (love your list sono_hito). Like a divorce with children, I will have to live with some of these decisions for the rest of my life. Though some were good decisions regardless, it was the fact they were made under false pretenses that makes me angry.

Chris <><

From the perspective of the believing member, the same can be said in reverse about those who have become unfaithful. The faithful members may be angered because so much has been invested in making and enabling life decisions, only to find ex-members and unbelieving members breaching their covenants and commitments they legitimately entered into, and proving themselves a lie, while having the gall to excuse their lies and unfaithfulness by falsely accusing the Church of the same.

I trust that this anger on the part of faithful members, and the justification they may give for it, doesn't sit well with former members and unbelievers, and may even ignite more anger in them. And, the same may well be true in reverse for faithful members who may be subjected to the justifications some former members may give for their anger.

This just goes to illustrate my previous point. All that justifying anger (particulalry of this sort and in public way) may do is feed and promote the cycle of anger.

Where is the sense in that? (Dr. Willard Gallin, in his book on "Hatred: The Psychological Descent Into Violence" would suggest that this kind of anger, and this kind of justifying of anger, plants and nurtures seeds that may grow into prejudice, hatred and bigotry and eventually blossom into physical violence. Not good!)

I would think that rather than either side trying to justify their anger and waving it about as though it is some kind of badge of honor and sing of superiority, or even an means of survival, thereby inadvertently fommenting more anger, they would be looking instead to prevent and resolve their anger.

But, that could just be me. Maybe there is sufficient pay-off in the mind of some to make it worth festering for years in anger.

For those who may wish to resolve their current anger and prevent the same kind of anger occuring in the future, may I suggest looking at things from the perspective of the other party. Think about what you would suggest to them to relieve their anger towards you, and then apply, in principle, that remedy to yourself.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Yoda]

Lets try this. A Father has Cancer and is going to die, he has 8 children, who of coarce he loves equally well.

This Fatehr has responsibilities that need to be passed on to someone. Now there are the children who took an interest in the family bussiness and involved themselves in the work, and there are those who had other interests and followed their own path.

When the will is read, who do you think will receive all that the father had? Who do oyu think would be given the oportunity to step into the Fathers shoes? Does this mean that he loved the other children less? How hurt do you think those that did not receive an inheritance of the responsibilities feel? Does it really matter how they feel about it?

I understand your point....BUT....the parable of the prodigal's son comes to mind. :)

Even though that son had squandered away his fortune, and the other son had stayed faithful by his father through everything, what did the father do? He gave a feast in honor of the son who had gone astray and returned to the fold. In other words, he gave him a second chance. That's what parents do. We give your children second chances...and third chances...and fourth chances.

Believe me, Gaz, when you're my age, you'll see things from my perspective a little more clearly. :)

[_wenglund]

I could be wrong, but I have always considered anger to be, for the most part, self-evident.

That's my point, Wade. I don't think it always necessarily is self-evident. I think a lot of times people walk around feeling depressed or out of sorts due to some type of devastation, whether real or imagined, and can't really pinpoint it as anger.

It is not unlike a headache. By its very nature, one typically recognizes that they have a headache.

It's interesting that you used this analogy, Wade. I'm a sufferer of hormonal migraine headaches. They are spontaneous, and have occurred since the birth of my second daughter.

I have had to actually learn over the years, how to recognize the headache, and when it is coming on. If I wait until the headache is full-force, my migraine medicine will not help me. I have to "catch it" before it reaches it's pique point, or I can be very sick for 1-2 days.

Now that I understand how to recognize my headache at the onslought, I can treat it. But before I was able to do that, I couldn't.

That is a valid point in terms of anger prevention. If someone is aware of triggering factors or conditions of vulnerability to anger, and can sense when there is a potential for anger or when anger is coming on, they can take steps to limit or avoid the anger (count to ten...step away from the situation...not discuss certain hot-button issues with certain people...etc.). That kind of recognizing is helpful.

However, I am not sure if this point applies in this case, where the anger already exists, and has presisted for some time. It is something to keep in mind, though.

Also....whether your perception of the reason behind a person's anger is real or imagined, the point is, it is real to them.

True. But, the reality of the anger is not in dispute. There is not even dispute over whether those who experiencing the anger will view their anger, at least on the surface, as reasonable and justified.

What seems to me to be in dispute is what should be the focus of ones attention: should it be the anger, itself, and the justifications given for that anger, or should it the factors (internal or external) that may be causing the anger. In other words, should one ruminate about the symptom/problem, or dwell on cause/solution. My inclination is to put my time and energy into resolving the anger/headache, rather than in justifying the same.

If you marginalize the reason for their anger, they are not going to trust you with advice on how to help them to the next step...

The intent is not to "marginalize" or dismiss or discount what some may view as the reason for their anger. Rather, it is to assist them in investigating deeper into the causal factors (particularly those that are internal), facilitate them in rationally and reasonably testing their own reasons, and helping them to find ways to resolve and prevent the anger in the future.

...even if that advice is sound, which, frankly, I think it is. Taking ownership and control of your life is the only way you can move on from any traumatic situation. And, again, you may not perceive what that person is going through as traumatic, but it is traumatic to them

Just food for thought as you launch your new website, Wade. ;) Is that still happening, by the way?

I appreciate your kind and supportive words. And, yes, my proposed web site is still under development. However, I don't feel much of a sense of urgency at the moment because I get the near unanimous impression from some of the "angry" people here, that they are disinclined to accept my services--and I am perfectly fine with that. So, I am in the process of figuring out who may be inclined, and how to make them aware of my site. Stay tuned. ;-)

Thanks, -Wade Englund-