A discussion with Mr. Scratch

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Jason and Liz

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:I can say I know (Like an apple will fall from my hands) that this church is true because I received a powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. I know the same way Peter knew. (Mat. 16:13-17)

As for the Muhammed business, he declares that Christ was merely a good teacher, while ignoreing everything Christ ever said. There is obviously no salvation found there.

The Catholic churchs loss of the Spirit and corruption of doctrine is well documented and easily researched. No salvation is found there.

All of the protestant churchs are mere branchs of the Catholic church, and possess no authority. How authority to act in the name of God is given is in numerous places throughout the Bible, such as Romans 1:1, and 1 Tim 4:14. Authority is not given merely because you feel strongly about something.

Both of you should spend less time studying the nonsence and more time studying the doctrines. Hugh Nibley has a number of books that take up this challenge of contrasting and compareing early Christianity with modern Mormonism. Also Robert Millet wrote a great book entitled "A Different Jesus" that compares the Doctrines of Mormonism to those of Born Again Christianity.

A little study on your part coupled with prayer will solidify your foundations and enable you to know truth as opposed to opinion.

Gaz


And yet you cannot even document when and where the Melch priesthood was restored. Not much authority there, I'd say.
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Post by _Gazelam »

I answered this in another thread, heres a cut and paste:

Harmony:
Quote:
And can you give us the chapter and verses that state when and where the Melch priesthood was restored?


Doctrine and Covenants 27:12-15
"12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;
14 And also with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.
15 Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, having done all, that ye may be able to stand.

Actually the whole section discusses the opening of the dispensation and the priesthood keys to do it.

Also JS-H 1:72
" 72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized. "


Which found its fullfillment here:
D&C 128:20
20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

If my account with all the details concerning the confirmation wasn't on the other end of the house I'd transcribe it here. To my memory Joseph and Oliver were on the run from a mob, going through the woods and thick underbrush. At one point they paused to catch their breath and pray, at which time Peter James and John appeared and blessed them.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: Jason and Liz

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Gazelam wrote:I can say I know (Like an apple will fall from my hands) that this church is true because I received a powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. I know the same way Peter knew. (Mat. 16:13-17)

As for the Muhammed business, he declares that Christ was merely a good teacher, while ignoreing everything Christ ever said. There is obviously no salvation found there.

The Catholic churchs loss of the Spirit and corruption of doctrine is well documented and easily researched. No salvation is found there.

All of the protestant churchs are mere branchs of the Catholic church, and possess no authority. How authority to act in the name of God is given is in numerous places throughout the Bible, such as Romans 1:1, and 1 Tim 4:14. Authority is not given merely because you feel strongly about something.

Both of you should spend less time studying the nonsence and more time studying the doctrines. Hugh Nibley has a number of books that take up this challenge of contrasting and compareing early Christianity with modern Mormonism. Also Robert Millet wrote a great book entitled "A Different Jesus" that compares the Doctrines of Mormonism to those of Born Again Christianity.

A little study on your part coupled with prayer will solidify your foundations and enable you to know truth as opposed to opinion.

Gaz


I am quite well read though I have not read much of Nibely other then his stuff on the Book of Mormon and Approaching Zion.

I really am not sure what else to say. I guess I used to be so certian. Gaz, what have you read that my challenge your hard set testimony. Anything?
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

You are not even a decent, useful human being "in general terms".


There's no real need to get too upset about this, as this is historically what the average ideological Leftist thinks about the average person who disagrees with him anyway. I'm just another Libertarian/Conservative brick in the wall in this sense.

Loran
_Coggins7
_Emeritus
Posts: 3679
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:25 am

Post by _Coggins7 »

I said, regarding Scratch's attempted explanation of the sense in which God "exists":



God does not exist in a "plane of existence" corresponding to "the real". At all events, what is apparantly being stated here is, not to put too fine a point on it, that God does not exist. That is, if there are "planes of existence", and God cannot be associated with any of them, and reality, or various realities, are associated with the various planes, then it follows that God is devoid of the property of being real, since he is not a part of the planes of reality that are themselves necessarily associated with some form of reality. Any other existing plane, if it does not correspond to some kind of substantive "reality", seems to be a logical self negation; a "plane of existence" that has no corresponding reality upon which that very plane can subsist.


This philosophical giant, in his blistering response to my philosophical critique of his statement, said:

Very well, Loran: go ahead and try to explain matters of faith using logic. Please provide a logical explanation for the existence of Two Cumorahs. Or Kolob. Or the appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith. (Or Moroni's Promise, for that matter.) Good luck with that, you booze-sucking, mush-headed, inbred, cow-chip-tossing, Right-wing hayseed.


Scratch is actually as good a creating long strings of clever cut downs, insults, and moral slanders as I am writing goofy song lyrics impaling antimos and exmos. However, regardless of whether we are speaking of matters of faith or anything else, Scratch made a kind onlotogical, or metaphysical argument that has an internal logical structure with logical consequences. In analyzing it, I found his claims to be logically self negating as well as rather nebulous. He did not respond to my critique.

My suspicion is that he really doen't know what to make of it.

To Plutarch: There are at least two understandings of the term "intellectual" that should be taken into consideration when throwing the term about. The first is the sense in which anybody who is involved with or makes a living within the world of or in the manipulation of the signs, symbols, and symbology of culture: that is, language (and/or imagery mixed with the use of language). In this sense, Madonna, Bill Maher, or Katie Couric are "intellectuals"; there world is the world of culture, media, language, words, and images combined with words. The other sense of the term is that describing serious thinkers, which is another thing altogether. There are many people who are not serious thinkers who are yet very articulate and well versed in the manipulation of the language. They are not experts in anything or "deep" thinkers on any subject but excellent verbalizers and can, if they have quick, agile minds, flummox others who are far more knowledgable than they in any of several ways.

In other words, "intellectual" doesn't necessarily mean smart, learned, or educated. A drug addled rock star writing vulgar lyrics with some social or political message is as much an intellectual as Hugh Nibley in the sense of working in the world of language and ideas. He is not an intellectual in the other sense.

We seem to have an abundance of the prior kind here, over the latter.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:I answered this in another thread, heres a cut and paste:


It's not enough, Gaz.

Doctrine and Covenants 27:12-15
"12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times, in the which I will gather together in one all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;
14 And also with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.
15 Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, having done all, that ye may be able to stand.


Speaks of Peter, James and John, not Joseph Smith. And certainly not of the Melch priesthood.

Also JS-H 1:72
" 72 The messenger who visited us on this occasion and conferred this Priesthood upon us, said that his name was John, the same that is called John the Baptist in the New Testament, and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us, and that I should be called the first Elder of the Church, and he (Oliver Cowdery) the second. It was on the fifteenth day of May, 1829, that we were ordained under the hand of this messenger, and baptized. "


This says Peter, James, and John held the Melch priesthood, and promised it to Joseph "in due time". It certainly doesn't confer the M priesthood onto Joseph.

Which found its fullfillment here:
D&C 128:20
20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!


This says Peter, James, and John had the keys to the kingdom, not that Joseph did. No one's saying P, J, and J didn't have it. I'm just looking for something that shows when and where and who gave it to Joseph. So far, you're just showing that P, J, and J had it, which is not in dispute.

If my account with all the details concerning the confirmation wasn't on the other end of the house I'd transcribe it here. To my memory Joseph and Oliver were on the run from a mob, going through the woods and thick underbrush. At one point they paused to catch their breath and pray, at which time Peter James and John appeared and blessed them.

Gaz


Why does appearing and blessing them = conferring the M priesthood on them, to you?
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Harmony

Post by _Gazelam »

D&C 84:19
"19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God."

That is the key spoken of in D&C 27.

The keys of the ministering of angels are resident in the Aeronic Priesthood (D&C 13; 107:20), and the Melchizedek Priesthood holds "the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church - To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant." (D&C 107:18-19)

When they speak of giving Joseph the keys of the Apostleship, that is the Priesthood.

D&C 35:25
25 And Israel shall be saved in mine own due time; and by the keys which I have given shall they be led, and no more be confounded at all.

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Harmony

Post by _harmony »

Gazelam wrote:D&C 84:19
"19 And this greater priesthood administereth the gospel and holdeth the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God."

That is the key spoken of in D&C 27.

The keys of the ministering of angels are resident in the Aeronic Priesthood (D&C 13; 107:20), and the Melchizedek Priesthood holds "the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church - To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the Firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God the Father, and Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant." (D&C 107:18-19)

When they speak of giving Joseph the keys of the Apostleship, that is the Priesthood.

D&C 35:25
25 And Israel shall be saved in mine own due time; and by the keys which I have given shall they be led, and no more be confounded at all.

Gaz


So essentially what you're saying is that there is no record of anyone ever placing their hands on Joseph's head and conferring on him the Melch priesthood. Glad we cleared that up. Thanks.
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Coggins7 wrote:I said, regarding Scratch's attempted explanation of the sense in which God "exists":



God does not exist in a "plane of existence" corresponding to "the real". At all events, what is apparantly being stated here is, not to put too fine a point on it, that God does not exist. That is, if there are "planes of existence", and God cannot be associated with any of them, and reality, or various realities, are associated with the various planes, then it follows that God is devoid of the property of being real, since he is not a part of the planes of reality that are themselves necessarily associated with some form of reality. Any other existing plane, if it does not correspond to some kind of substantive "reality", seems to be a logical self negation; a "plane of existence" that has no corresponding reality upon which that very plane can subsist.


This philosophical giant, in his blistering response to my philosophical critique of his statement, said:

Very well, Loran: go ahead and try to explain matters of faith using logic. Please provide a logical explanation for the existence of Two Cumorahs. Or Kolob. Or the appearance of Moroni to Joseph Smith. (Or Moroni's Promise, for that matter.) Good luck with that, you booze-sucking, mush-headed, inbred, cow-chip-tossing, Right-wing hayseed.


Scratch is actually as good a creating long strings of clever cut downs, insults, and moral slanders as I am writing goofy song lyrics impaling antimos and exmos. However, regardless of whether we are speaking of matters of faith or anything else, Scratch made a kind onlotogical, or metaphysical argument that has an internal logical structure with logical consequences. In analyzing it, I found his claims to be logically self negating as well as rather nebulous. He did not respond to my critique.

My suspicion is that he really doen't know what to make of it.


Actually, Loran, you appeared to have adopted my views in your homosexuality thread, where you claim that your views are not susceptible to a logical analysis. Funny how these things work, isn't it?
_Gazelam
_Emeritus
Posts: 5659
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:06 am

Harmony

Post by _Gazelam »

Your ignoreing what you read.

JSH 1:72 stated:

"....and that he acted under the direction of Peter, James and John, who held the keys of the Priesthood of Melchizedek, which Priesthood, he said, would in due time be conferred on us...."

And as repoted, they did so.

Whats the problem?

Gaz
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
Post Reply