A discussion with Mr. Scratch

[_Mister Scratch]

It is unclear whether or not we are to read that scriptural text literally. If we are, then I would say that the resurrected Christ and his disciples had entered an "abstracted", "metaphysical" state for the interim.

Please expand on what your saying here. Offer more than a sentance and back it up with scripture or authoritative quotes.

No, Gaz. You are missing the point. If we are discussing faith---and I was under the impression that we were---then there needn't be any evidence. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. That is where you and I differ: you demand evidence to support your faith. I don't need any. While scriptures, prayers, "authoritative quotes," faith-promoting stories and so on can augment or limn the outskirts of faith, they are all, ultimately, in my opinion, beside the point. Either you believe or you don't. Demanding that "evidence" and scripture fully support your beliefs is "ark steadying," in my opinion.

Your description of the scenario with the woman only proves my point: you pressured her into praying in your very specific way. Hence, a "high pressure" technique.

We visited with her, and she stated that she hadn't gotten an answer. We asked how she prayed and told us about the laying in bed thing. We instructed her on how to pray properly and left. The next day she found us in the street walking to an appointment and told us that she had received an answer and wanted to be baptised. Sound high pressure to you?

In a subtle way, yes.

Believe me Gaz, the ground I walk on is every bit as solid as yours. The big difference is that I never have to lapse into knuckle-chewing and bawling whenever I hear criticism of the Church.

If you walk on solid groud, please show evidence for this by makeing a declaration of your faith on any doctrinal topic. So far you have not done so.

Yes I have, Gaz. Simply because it doesn't fit your preconceived TBM notion of a "declaration" does not mean that I haven't.

Do I chew my knuckles and cry?

I don't know.

Anyways, I think you've forgotten why this thread was even started. You resurrected this conversation in order to "save yourself" from embarrassment, in a sense. Remember? You accused me of never dealing with "deep" topics, and I reminded you that you had abandoned an earlier discussion about faith. Remember? You ready to admit you were wrong, or what?

[_rcrocket]

True intellectuals don't let their buttons be pushed.

That has nothing to do with intellectualism. Intellectuals have emotional buttons like all people. That is part of being human. They are no more or less capable of suppressing their emotions than the village idiot. Those who control their emotions better than others learn to do so by practice - this camp includes both intellectuals and idiots.

I consider DCP an intellectual and he certainly has a button (Islam).

You are one who certainly lets your button be pushed. Just an observation.

P

[_Gazelam]

No, Gaz. You are missing the point. If we are discussing faith---and I was under the impression that we were---then there needn't be any evidence. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence. That is where you and I differ: you demand evidence to support your faith. I don't need any. While scriptures, prayers, "authoritative quotes," faith-promoting stories and so on can augment or limn the outskirts of faith, they are all, ultimately, in my opinion, beside the point. Either you believe or you don't. Demanding that "evidence" and scripture fully support your beliefs is "ark steadying," in my opinion.

I thought this discussion was about you decalreing what it is that you believe. Call it a discussion about faith if you like, but your beliefs seem to put you out on a little island all by yourself. I have never heard such strange doctrines. But if you want to cling to beliefs that demand nothing of you, since they are merely abstract and therefore non-binding, you go right ahead, theres probably a little born again christian church in Texas or Oklahoma that I'm sure would prop you up as a mighty preacher. Just keep in mind that God will bind his promises to you to the same degree oyu bind yourself to him. View him as merely abstract, and he'll view his promises to you in the same light.

I'm not looking to steady any Ark, just looking to make sure my understanding is proper. It was called the Ark of the Covenant remember? A covenant is a contract and promise, and contract have boundries and aplications, things that need to be understood. That requires more of a foundation in concrete truths, not abstractions.


Gaz:

If you walk on solid groud, please show evidence for this by makeing a declaration of your faith on any doctrinal topic. So far you have not done so.

Scratch:

Yes I have, Gaz. Simply because it doesn't fit your preconceived TBM notion of a "declaration" does not mean that I haven't

Scratch you havent made a single statement of belief in this entire conversation. Abstractions are not beliefs! Try again.

Tell you what, heres an easy one: Please state for us your belief concerning Christ. Is he or is he not your personal Savior?

Anyways, I think you've forgotten why this thread was even started. You resurrected this conversation in order to "save yourself" from embarrassment, in a sense. Remember? You accused me of never dealing with "deep" topics, and I reminded you that you had abandoned an earlier discussion about faith. Remember? You ready to admit you were wrong, or what?

I'll admit I was wrong about you discussing anything Deep when you actually discuss something deep. Abstractions don't count. Giving us a proper commentary on those few verses in Luke would count.

Gaz

[_Jason Bourne]

Because I received a revelation for myself as Peter did (Matt. 16:13-19). I know independent of all others that Jesus is the Christ and that I am in his one true church. If you would follow Peters example, you would know as well and wouldent have to spend your time spinning your words and you would be able to stand on solid ground and apply yourself better.

Gaz,

What do you say when you meet someone of another faith who bears similar testimony? How about a Catholic who know he is in God's one true church, or an low church evangelical who knows God's One True Church is made up of the body of true believers, or the Muslim who knows that God is good and Muhammed is his last true prophet?

[_Gazelam]

I tell them they are wrong, and then I teach them why.

Gaz

[_Jason Bourne]

I tell them they are wrong, and then I teach them why.

Gaz

So their spirituall witness in inferior to yours? Can you really believe this and keep a straight face about it?

[_Gazelam]

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify of muhammed?

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify of the authority of that catholic church?

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify that the church of the nazarene in southern Oaklahoma is Gods true church?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Gods true Church, It carries the Melchizedek Priesthood and as such has the only true baptism found on the Earth. Gods Temple and the ordiances of salvation are found here and in no other place. If a spirit testifys contrary to this, be suspicious of the source of that spirit.

[_harmony]

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify of muhammed?

Well, something does.

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify of the authority of that catholic church?

Well, something does.

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify that the church of the nazarene in southern Oaklahoma is Gods true church?

Well, something does.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Gods true Church, It carries the Melchizedek Priesthood and as such has the only true baptism found on the Earth. Gods Temple and the ordiances of salvation are found here and in no other place. If a spirit testifys contrary to this, be suspicious of the source of that spirit.

Your ethnocentricity is showing, Gaz. And so is your arrogance. Strive for a little humility, okay? You believe what you believe because that's all you've ever known. But that doesn't invalidate what those other people believe. And it sure as heck doesn't make you right (or them either, for that matter.)

[_Jason Bourne]

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify of muhammed?

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify of the authority of that catholic church?

Is the Holy Ghost going to testify that the church of the nazarene in southern Oaklahoma is Gods true church?

I don;t know. The testimony of the spirit, based on emotional feelings, lacks empirical data to prove it one way or another. Thus when someone tells me they believe God has spoken to them in such a way that they believe the path they follow is true how can I dispute it, as long as the path is not going against what seems to be God's nature and is not going to hurt someone. I do not believe if the 9/11 terrorists said God's spirit told then to murder it was really of God. But a Baptist who really believes that reformed theology is true and believes the Holy Ghost has bore witness to that, how can you or I dispute it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is Gods true Church, It carries the Melchizedek Priesthood and as such has the only true baptism found on the Earth. Gods Temple and the ordinances of salvation are found here and in no other place. If a spirit testifys contrary to this, be suspicious of the source of that spirit

How do you know it is the spirit and that the evangelical who think you are deceived and in a cult is not right? How do your really KNOW this and why should anyone trust you?

Mormons may say they KNOW but they really do not know when it comes to what knowing really means. Do you know in the sense that Alma 32 describes knowing? When a Mormon says they know they are really saying I believe this very much and have a lot of faith and I believe the Holy Ghost has testified to me of these truths. But know, in the sense that if you drop an apple it wil be pulled to the ground by gravity.. .no, you do not really know.

I mean really, can you not see the fallacy in stating that "My witness is really the right witness and all the rest are not." Try to think about this outside the LDS box Gaz, Just try.

[_Gazelam]

I can say I know (Like an apple will fall from my hands) that this church is true because I received a powerful witness of the Holy Ghost. I know the same way Peter knew. (Mat. 16:13-17)

As for the Muhammed business, he declares that Christ was merely a good teacher, while ignoreing everything Christ ever said. There is obviously no salvation found there.

The Catholic churchs loss of the Spirit and corruption of doctrine is well documented and easily researched. No salvation is found there.

All of the protestant churchs are mere branchs of the Catholic church, and possess no authority. How authority to act in the name of God is given is in numerous places throughout the Bible, such as Romans 1:1, and 1 Tim 4:14. Authority is not given merely because you feel strongly about something.

Both of you should spend less time studying the nonsence and more time studying the doctrines. Hugh Nibley has a number of books that take up this challenge of contrasting and compareing early Christianity with modern Mormonism. Also Robert Millet wrote a great book entitled "A Different Jesus" that compares the Doctrines of Mormonism to those of Born Again Christianity.

A little study on your part coupled with prayer will solidify your foundations and enable you to know truth as opposed to opinion.

Gaz