the loss of innocence

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_The Dude
_Emeritus
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Post by _The Dude »

Mister Scratch wrote:Hey Dude---have you heard me mention that I suspect Mordecai might be a sockpuppet for Will Schryver?


I remember you saying that.

I interacted with Chozah, Provis, and the real Will Schryver on evolution/creation topics. After the first time (as Chozah) Schryver was always quick to duck out of those debates and cheer from the sidelines. Mordecai, on the other hand, likes to go on and on and on.
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

Beastie,

I wrote this poem many years ago, but maybe it might have some meaning to you and the other board vets here...

Untitled
Friday, May 17, 1999
2AM

How would you like it if everything you thought to be right in your life
turned out to be an illusion?
Nothing is as it seems in my life.
Everything that I thought to be true,
Everything that I thought to be moral,
Everything that I thought to be right
is false.
Everything.
No one understands the impenetrable loneliness
that I'm forced to bear every day.
I feel like there's a gaping hole in my chest
where my heart should be.
I cannot go on living all these lies,
I cannot even bear the hate-filled eyes
of all the people who said they loved me.
To them I'm the villian,
whether I intend to be or not.
Or maybe I am so selfish I am blind.
I don't know anymore.
I'm too weak, too afraid to find out.
So many fingers pointed at me.
So many people saying its all my fault.
I'm almost tempted to take all the blame,
Along with whatever punishment that may come.
Just so it can one day end.
I think to myself sometimes that true love must not exist.
It puzzles me how parts of life can be so breathtakingly beautiful,
and yet so much evil is allowed to exist.
What is the purpose? the point? the plan?

-GIMR

Yes, it's angst-ridden. And not all of it applies to what I've read here. But some things I thought would fit. And I was a teenager when I wrote this. Teenager=drama.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_beastie
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

GIMR - I was angst ridden when I left the church in my mid-thirties. Losing faith in a belief system that provides a pervasive world view is never easy. I would certainly have related to many of your sentiments. I will never understand how some believers think that this process is so insignificant that exbelievers should be able to shrug it off and change beliefs like a pair of old shoes, with nary a backwards glance.


TD -

You know, I really do believe there is something to the idea that what we bring into our awareness cretes our reality, and what this means to me in real life (smile) is that when we listen to the news we see a horrible world. When we interact with the really nasty LDS folks on a message board we forget that they are not really representative of what LDS folks are.


Yes, there is a lot to this. I've got to swear off following politics and world events. It just seems to pollute my mind, and yet it's a hard habit to quit, because there are so many critical events occurring. (we better wait till better weather to do lunch! We're getting ice as we speak)

Jason

I think posting on boards like this and others can bring the worst out in us. I know it has with me and at times I need to go back and quickly edit stuff. Often I ask myself if I would really say these things were I speaking face to face with the person. I do not always succeed though.

On the other hand, there is the tribe aspect to any cultural group including LDS. It is often difficult to understand for those show still believe when someone rejects something they believes and lived. To confirm in the minds of those remaining that they are correct they must be able to declare the person who abandons the tribe as strange, odd, mixed up and mistaken. Religion, politics, cultural norms etc. all have this element.


You know what's funny - I think I was nicer and more tolerant of believers before posting on boards like Z and FAIR. Believers like to say it's sites like RFM that make people mean and bitter, but it didn't make me mean and bitter. I recently reread some of my earliest posts at Z and I was, well, nicer. I've become blunter as time goes on, and that doesn't always translate well. Despite my hopes of helping to bridge the gulf between believer and exbeliever, these exchanges seem to have made it worse.

Definitely this is pervasive, which is part of what bothered me. Politics is a perfect example. Where can a person who wants just FACTS about some of these crucial issues go??? Practically nowhere. Oh, sure, everyone claims to provide facts, but they are so completely altered depending on the source, I find it impossible to trust any source. If you follow politics, it's like human beings morphing into caricatures of ourselves and our worst instincts. We've always been like this - can we really overcoming it? Or at least control it? I do think it could destroy us, literally, if we don't.

Runtu, you do have an interesting viewpoint, having been on both sides. You're probably viewed with even more suspicion than those of us whose "switching sides" wasn't witnessed in real time.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
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Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Post by _Dr. Shades »

beastie wrote:I guess part of me fears that even they would behave this way if they posted on an internet board, but I bet they wouldn't. When I was struggling with doubts, reeling from learning about Joseph Smith' polyandry, I reached out to several members of my ward for help, and with the one exception I mentioned before, none of them were rude or dismissive. They actually tried to help. Maybe it's not that all of us give in to our worst instincts behind a computer screen, but rather that certain personality types are attracted to internet boards in the first place, hence making their numbers over-representative of the general population.


Here's an alternate theory:

When you reached out to your ward members, you were still "in" the fold, thus still an ally. Allies help each other.
When you appeared on the Internet, you were "out" of the fold, thus an enemy. Enemies attack each other.

Ergo, it's not that certain types are attracted to Internet boards, etc., it's just that at one point you were part of the "in" group whereas a little later you were part of the "out" group.

What do you think of this alternate theory of the differences between the ways you were treated?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_beastie
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Shades,

That may be true, as well. But MADdites tend to attack even believers who express doubts they don't like.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mephitus
_Emeritus
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm

Post by _Mephitus »

It reminds me of something that was pointed out by my favorite author Douglas Adams(hitch hikers guide to the galaxy). That everyone is at least partly guilty of. That being making their universe as small as they are able to mentaly handel. And that anyone that is a threat to that smaller world view must be expunged at any cost.

The example that he used in his book was a bunch of ape like creatures living in a rather large oglar nut tree. Refusing to acknowlegde the other trees as anything more than an overactive immagination, probly due to eating too many oglar nuts. Anyone that even expressed the thought that the trees might be something more where promptly thrown from the tree to their death. And so they lived short meaning full lives, getting married, having children, carving small speculative poems in the bark of the tree, eventualy dying. Tied to the underside of one of the less accessable branches.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty! - Douglas Adams


Ha! This quote so perfectly sums up the MADdites who believe they have "embraced" ambiguity in revelation and life, by accepting the past flaws in the method (as seen in past prophetic teachings) and yet still believing in the "truth" of the church. They only embrace ambiguity around the edges, not in the CORE of LDS beliefs.

Yes, the oglar apes is a good demonstration. I believe that the believers on MAD who are the most extreme in their attitude towards critics do so because they truly believe critics are inspired of Satan. If Satan showed up on your internet board, should you treat him with even a speck of respect, or instead just deride him and expose him for the vile creature he is? Well, we're just his representatives.

I have always found this an amazing feat, that some believers can still simplify matters to that point, when the fact is that there really does exist a plethora of issues that could feasibly trouble and cause doubt in any decent, reasonable individual. No Satan figure is required to doubt the claims of the LDS church, just an awareness of history and certain scientific realities.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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