the loss of innocence

[_beastie]

I lost my faith in the LDS church around the year 1993, around the time of the excommunication of the September Six. Their excommunication occurred after my loss of faith, but partly precipitated my decision to formally exit the church, along with my children, rather than remain a social member for my family’s sake. Along with my family, through various stages, I was an adult convert to the church (or almost adult at 19). As time passed, our convert family also split into believer and nonbeliever. After the initial emotional fall-out created by my loss of faith, and my family’s hopes for a united hereafter, we settled into a truce largely based on silence and our continued love for one another. It’s the pink elephant in the living room we all politely avoid. Although I initially wished we could come to understandings with one another about this division, it is simply too emotionally fraught for us. Ignoring it is the best option. We’ve learned to live with it, and our mortal bonds still unite us, and we’re there for one another despite this difference. I know some people with a similar divide do not fare as well; I count myself lucky.

I didn’t discover the internet and ex-mormonism therein until 1996, when I became a member of the ex-mormon email group that later developed into the RFM board. For the next several years I participated there off and on. Gradually I discovered boards that were designed for interactions between believer and ex-believer or nonbeliever. Here, I thought, we could learn the bridge the divide, we could learn to talk to one another instead of past one another. If I couldn’t talk to my family and help them understand what had happened to my faith, perhaps other believers could stand in as proxy. I was optimistic, and frankly, gentler and kinder back then.

But as people from both sides of the divide well know, it doesn’t take too many unpleasant interactions, too many seemingly unjustified “attacks” from the “other” side, and it seems inevitable that tribes form and boundaries, instead of softening, sharpen to knifelike points. Conversations seem pointless, and at times I wonder if we are speaking the same language. I am amazed at the misunderstandings – how people can take words that I intended to mean one thing and make them mean something else altogether – usually uglier or more stupid or obtuse. I’m sure believers feel the same way.

Perhaps if I had had this experience at a different point in time, with a different global backdrop, I would view it as pretty meaningless, and perhaps just demonstrative of why polite people avoid certain topics. But today it seems to mean something different, something gloomier and more global. It demonstrates to me that we human beings are just not designed – either by a God or a blind watchmaker – to be able to bridge the divides between us. Instead, we seem wired to form tribes that become hostile and suspicious of one another. The price for this species flaw in the “real world” seems to be paid in human blood and tears, rather than harsh debates about topics that, in the end, don’t really matter much at all to the world at large, no matter how large they loom for certain small groups.

I mourn for my loss of innocence. Make no mistake – I lost that innocence not just because of the behavior of others, but because of the hardening of the invisible boundaries I set, too. I mourn not because of my small life, but because I have children, who will have children, who will have children… I hope. At this moment in time, despite the optimists among us, I think that this inability to bridge the divide, demonstrated in a small community like Mormonism and ex-mormonism, is symbolic of something far larger, something universal – and something that may, in the end, destroy the hopes of future generations – or even their existence.

Good night, and good luck.

[_Runtu]

I know what you mean. I can handle the loss of faith in Mormonism; now it seems rather small and insignificant. But the loss of innocence is a good way to put the realization that we are so hard-coded into notions of us and them that we will spew whatever kind of hate we deem necessary to protect ourselves and our tribe from the other.

I mourn too.

[_beastie]

I do hope we, as human beings, can learn to recognize and control this instinct. That's part of what I find so valuable about studying human evolution - sometimes when we can understand the background evolutionary utility of certain tendencies, it helps us to be objective about them and rise above them.

Oddly, the mirror thread I posted on MAD was shut down for violating board rules. I can't quite figure out which rule it violated - I wasn't specifically talking about politics, just alluding to background global issues. I didn't intend it to be personal and only responded personally when others took it there. It certainly wasn't a "testimony" or "exit story". So what in the world caused them to shut it down?

Oh well. I hardly care any more.

[_Runtu]

I do hope we, as human beings, can learn to recognize and control this instinct. That's part of what I find so valuable about studying human evolution - sometimes when we can understand the background evolutionary utility of certain tendencies, it helps us to be objective about them and rise above them.

Oddly, the mirror thread I posted on MAD was shut down for violating board rules. I can't quite figure out which rule it violated - I wasn't specifically talking about politics, just alluding to background global issues. I didn't intend it to be personal and only responded personally when others took it there. It certainly wasn't a "testimony" or "exit story". So what in the world caused them to shut it down?

Oh well. I hardly care any more.

I have no idea. Weird. Oh, well. I see the same polarization you do, and it is indeed depressing. I left that place because I realized that I was not likely to rise above that tendency.

[_Bond...James Bond]

I do hope we, as human beings, can learn to recognize and control this instinct. That's part of what I find so valuable about studying human evolution - sometimes when we can understand the background evolutionary utility of certain tendencies, it helps us to be objective about them and rise above them.

Oddly, the mirror thread I posted on MAD was shut down for violating board rules. I can't quite figure out which rule it violated - I wasn't specifically talking about politics, just alluding to background global issues. I didn't intend it to be personal and only responded personally when others took it there. It certainly wasn't a "testimony" or "exit story". So what in the world caused them to shut it down?

Oh well. I hardly care any more.

Probably personal thread.

[_wenglund]

I, for one, appreciate you sharing this with us. It provides a little personal substance and background to the mysterious person posting under anonymous screen names, and helps me better to see your good heart (whereas your good mind has always been evident).

At this moment in time, despite the optimists among us, I think that this inability to bridge the divide, demonstrated in a small community like Mormonism and ex-mormonism, is symbolic of something far larger, something universal – and something that may, in the end, destroy the hopes of future generations – or even their existence.

Perhaps you are right. However, I haven't given up hope, and I fully intend to do my part in building that bridge and helping myself and others to cross over it.

As I have mentioned multiple times on this and other boards, I believe at least a critical part of the solution is to reorient ourselves towards fulfilling, as best as possible, the basic human need for mutual love, value, and respect, and to work towards becoming our very best selves and assisting others to do likewise.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_The Dude]

Oddly, the mirror thread I posted on MAD was shut down for violating board rules. I can't quite figure out which rule it violated - I wasn't specifically talking about politics, just alluding to background global issues. I didn't intend it to be personal and only responded personally when others took it there. It certainly wasn't a "testimony" or "exit story". So what in the world caused them to shut it down?

Oh well. I hardly care any more.

To me, it sounded like a personal exit story right from the start. Sorry, but I can see why the shut it down.

OTOH, seeing Hammer get a five day suspension totally made my day! Thanks for setting that up, beastie. :)

[_asbestosman]

OTOH, seeing Hammer get a five day suspension totally made my day! Thanks for setting that up, beastie. :)

I might be able to understnad why you rejoice in Hammer getting the book thrown at him, but what would you do if Mordecai got suspended? Who would there be left for you to argue with on MA&D?

[_The Dude]

OTOH, seeing Hammer get a five day suspension totally made my day! Thanks for setting that up, beastie. :)

I might be able to understnad why you rejoice in Hammer getting the book thrown at him, but what would you do if Mordecai got suspended? Who would there be left for you to argue with on MA&D?

I would protest! Mordecai should be a pundit with all the books he's read.

[_harmony]

I mourn for my loss of innocence. Make no mistake – I lost that innocence not just because of the behavior of others, but because of the hardening of the invisible boundaries I set, too. I mourn not because of my small life, but because I have children, who will have children, who will have children… I hope. At this moment in time, despite the optimists among us, I think that this inability to bridge the divide, demonstrated in a small community like Mormonism and ex-mormonism, is symbolic of something far larger, something universal – and something that may, in the end, destroy the hopes of future generations – or even their existence.

Good night, and good luck.

Long ago, we were adversaries, or at least on opposite sides of the fence. Now that is not so. I look back on those years, when I was tearing up the boards, shredding them regularly, flaming out like a rocket, being threatened with a church court, threatened with bodily harm, my children stalked at college, my lawn with a cross burned into it... and then Doppleganger created the Fringe. He was tired of the bloodbath and we all needed a safe haven by then. Then Josh lured me to ZLMB. He discounted what I was saying about polygamy... was so sure the big guns on ZLMB would set me straight. That didn't happen, but my reputation continued to grow and the bloodbath followed. Posters either like or hate harmony; there is no middle ground. Respect from some posters; disrespect from others. All I ever ask is that we all live what we preach. I have as hard a time at that as anyone, so I am not exempt.

You know me in real life, Trix. with Walker... Froggie... Addict... Joe... Peggy... Sassy... Ed... Judy... Zenobia... Hopie... Did you meet Patton? I treasure those fun times, those memories. I was younger then, so much younger, so much less cynical. Losing Patti... and now Peggy's paddling a similiar canoe. Sometimes the pain is just too much. I need to make a trip to Utah, just to see old friends, and meet some of the folks from here, before circumstances take them away from me forever.