the loss of innocence

[_Trinity]

Hi Beastie,

I used the "loss of innocence" term with a VT just three weeks ago as I was trying to describe to her my thoughts about the church. I paralleled it to a belief in Santa Claus and how wonderfully innocent I was believing in this magnificent being of Santa Claus and now I have my own children and I must bear the responsibility to perpetuating the belief for their good and how this responsibility was sad to me on some level because I wish still that there was the symbolism that had real-life substance. (the Santa analogy didn't go over very well, by the way)

I think technology has changed our world. It has threatened the few extremists who live on the dogmatic edge. But. I think they are few. They make more noise, they have more of a tendency to blow up or act out in violent extremist ways. I think the body of humanity as a whole is becoming more reasonable with more enlightenment. This actually comforts me to some extent. I think it is important not to react too harshly to the noisemakers but listen very intently to the quiet movement of the masses. That movement is, in my opinion, the most telling indicator of how we are progressing as a body of animals.

[_Jason Bourne]

I mourn for my loss of innocence. Make no mistake – I lost that innocence not just because of the behavior of others, but because of the hardening of the invisible boundaries I set, too. I mourn not because of my small life, but because I have children, who will have children, who will have children… I hope. At this moment in time, despite the optimists among us, I think that this inability to bridge the divide, demonstrated in a small community like Mormonism and ex-mormonism, is symbolic of something far larger, something universal – and something that may, in the end, destroy the hopes of future generations – or even their existence.

Good night, and good luck.

Long ago, we were adversaries, or at least on opposite sides of the fence. Now that is not so. I look back on those years, when I was tearing up the boards, shredding them regularly, flaming out like a rocket, being threatened with a church court, threatened with bodily harm, my children stalked at college, my lawn with a cross burned into it... and then Doppleganger created the Fringe. He was tired of the bloodbath and we all needed a safe haven by then. Then Josh lured me to ZLMB. He discounted what I was saying about polygamy... was so sure the big guns on ZLMB would set me straight. That didn't happen, but my reputation continued to grow and the bloodbath followed. Posters either like or hate harmony; there is no middle ground. Respect from some posters; disrespect from others. All I ever ask is that we all live what we preach. I have as hard a time at that as anyone, so I am not exempt.

You know me in real life, Trix. with Walker... Froggie... Addict... Joe... Peggy... Sassy... Ed... Judy... Zenobia... Hopie... Did you meet Patton? I treasure those fun times, those memories. I was younger then, so much younger, so much less cynical. Losing Patti... and now Peggy's paddling a similiar canoe. Sometimes the pain is just too much. I need to make a trip to Utah, just to see old friends, and meet some of the folks from here, before circumstances take them away from me forever.

I like you. But then I am just one of those anonymous hypocrites.

Innocence? Mine seems gone though I still hold on.

[_harmony]

I like you. But then I am just one of those anonymous hypocrites.

Innocence? Mine seems gone though I still hold on.

Thank you. I like you too. I remember very well the instance my innocence began to seep away. It was in a post that said Joseph Smith had more than one wife, and gave indisputable documentation. My world broke apart in that instant. And I shredded the boards for months while I tried to come to terms with what I felt was the most tremendous betrayal I could ever endure, next to adultery from my husband. I'd left my family for the LDS church; barred them from my wedding; ignored their warnings about the church's history, only to find out they were right all along. I was absolutely devastated.

[_Runtu]

Thank you. I like you too. I remember very well the instance my innocence began to seep away. It was in a post that said Joseph Smith had more than one wife, and gave indisputable documentation. My world broke apart in that instant. And I shredded the boards for months while I tried to come to terms with what I felt was the most tremendous betrayal I could ever endure, next to adultery from my husband. I'd left my family for the LDS church; barred them from my wedding; ignored their warnings about the church's history, only to find out they were right all along. I was absolutely devastated.

Mine went when an anguished friend called to ask me about polyandry and Helen Mar Kimball. It wasn't until that moment that I realized just what I had been justifying and why. If you felt betrayed, I felt like I was the one doing the betraying. I had somehow worked out how Joseph's actions were all just fine and dandy, and I was defending the indefensible. It was devastating. My entire world came crashing down before I even hung up the phone.

And I like you too, by the way.

[_Mister Scratch]

OTOH, seeing Hammer get a five day suspension totally made my day! Thanks for setting that up, beastie. :)

I might be able to understnad why you rejoice in Hammer getting the book thrown at him, but what would you do if Mordecai got suspended? Who would there be left for you to argue with on MA&D?

I would protest! Mordecai should be a pundit with all the books he's read.

Hey Dude---have you heard me mention that I suspect Mordecai might be a sockpuppet for Will Schryver?

[_beastie]

They've put me back in action as emeritus moderator to lend a hand in the committee hashings as well as to lecture junior moderators.

I'm making the recommendation that the personal exit (atrocity?) story be deleted from this thread. Beastie, what part of "no personal threads" do you not understand (heard you were wondering why the thread was closed)?

Dunamis

So what I wrote is an "atrocity tale"? What an utterly bizarre statement. I don't care if she claims Mauss reassured her that she did appear to understand Bromley's theory, she doesn't. He must have been sparing her feelings. She is utterly clueless as to what "atrocity tale" meant in Bromley's model, which is where she lifted the phrase.

I remember gad and EA telling me long ago, when we were all still at Z, that I was insane to ever take Juliann seriously. They said in their "philosophical" interactions with her (their area of interest) it was clear she never really understood the terms she used from that field. It's as if certain phrases call out to her, they appeal to her like a TV jingle, and she inserts them in her arguments without the vaguest understanding of what the terms actually mean. My interactions with her have proven their point. It became bizarre to see her claiming to offer citations or links to articles on the Olmec thread that she thought refuted my argument when, in reality, the articles and quotes supported my argument. Yet she simply cannot see it. It reminds me of my first experience on FAIR, when it took me PAGES to convince her that her citation that said "there is no evidence that winners were sacrificed in Mesoamerican ballgames" didn't mean that NO ONE was sacrificed in ballgames, just that the LOSERS were, not the winners. It's the only time I think she actually finally got it, and it took literally pages to get it through. What is sad isn't that someone of Juliann's limitations posts on an internet board and tries to sound like she knows what she's talking about - what is sad is that other believers on the board look to her as a good apologist.

In regards to it being a personal thread - certainly not an exit story - yes, I used my own experience to make a larger point, but that happens all the time on MAD. The point wasn't my experience - the point is that human beings seemed wired to demonstrate such strong tribal loyalties that all information is filtered through that bias, and the result is very little actual communication takes place. That isn't personal - it's global.

[_beastie]

I'm glad some of you are more tempered in your outlook and optimistic. I wasn't joking when I said I think I listen to the news too much. There is just not much good news in the world today, it seems to me.

I do need to remember that the most vocal extremists, those most unwilling to "hear" what the "other" says are a minority, albeit, at times, a dangerous minority. I can only think of one LDS person I knew in real life that I can imagine behaving the way some of the MADdites do - and, by the way, he had very few friends, LDS or no. (of course I live in the mission field, I've always heard that Utah Mormons are a tad more arrogant) I guess part of me fears that even they would behave this way if they posted on an internet board, but I bet they wouldn't. When I was struggling with doubts, reeling from learning about Joseph Smith' polyandry, I reached out to several members of my ward for help, and with the one exception I mentioned before, none of them were rude or dismissive. They actually tried to help. Maybe it's not that all of us give in to our worst instincts behind a computer screen, but rather that certain personality types are attracted to internet boards in the first place, hence making their numbers over-representative of the general population. Hey, I like that idea. I think there may be something to it.

Maybe we can't discuss these touchy issues with our family, because they are so emotionally entangled. But I bet I could discuss it with other believers in real life without the problems that seem to occur on the net. I just don't, because I live pretty far from other LDS right now, and plus, I don't want to intrude something personal on them. I'm not that close to them to justify it.


And yes - we have progressed, morally, as a species. I do need to remember that as well. If we can just get through this current rough patch, maybe we'll survive yet. As much as I adore Robert Wright, you'd think I'd be more persuaded by his own optimism.

[_Runtu]

I'm glad some of you are more tempered in your outlook and optimistic. I wasn't joking when I said I think I listen to the news too much. There is just not much good news in the world today, it seems to me.

I do need to remember that the most vocal extremists, those most unwilling to "hear" what the "other" says are a minority, albeit, at times, a dangerous minority. I can only think of one LDS person I knew in real life that I can imagine behaving the way some of the MADdites do - and, by the way, he had very few friends, LDS or no. (of course I live in the mission field, I've always heard that Utah Mormons are a tad more arrogant) I guess part of me fears that even they would behave this way if they posted on an internet board, but I bet they wouldn't. When I was struggling with doubts, reeling from learning about Joseph Smith' polyandry, I reached out to several members of my ward for help, and with the one exception I mentioned before, none of them were rude or dismissive. They actually tried to help. Maybe it's not that all of us give in to our worst instincts behind a computer screen, but rather that certain personality types are attracted to internet boards in the first place, hence making their numbers over-representative of the general population. Hey, I like that idea. I think there may be something to it.

Back in my apologist days, I was asked by MorningStar to come over to an American Idol (don't laugh) board, where some Pastor was berating her Mormon beliefs. The guy was an idiot, and it was really hard to be civil because he was so nasty and hateful, just as beastie describes. Anyway, it wasn't hard to win a debate against such an irrational and uninformed opponent, so I just tried to be nice, and I made a lot of friends. And then Zakuska showed up. That guy made more enemies for the church over there than the pastor had. It seemed like I had to spend most of my time undoing the damage he was causing over there.

By the time I went back to FAIR, I had experienced my change of heart, and the people who had once called on me for help were circulating emails about how I was a possibly deranged stalker and threatening to call my wife and bishop.

So, I've seen the ugliness from all sides. Through all this time, I've tried to be kind and civil, but sometimes I do think that it's too late for many of us.

[_Jason Bourne]

I'm glad some of you are more tempered in your outlook and optimistic. I wasn't joking when I said I think I listen to the news too much. There is just not much good news in the world today, it seems to me.

I do need to remember that the most vocal extremists, those most unwilling to "hear" what the "other" says are a minority, albeit, at times, a dangerous minority. I can only think of one LDS person I knew in real life that I can imagine behaving the way some of the MADdites do - and, by the way, he had very few friends, LDS or no. (of course I live in the mission field, I've always heard that Utah Mormons are a tad more arrogant) I guess part of me fears that even they would behave this way if they posted on an internet board, but I bet they wouldn't. When I was struggling with doubts, reeling from learning about Joseph Smith' polyandry, I reached out to several members of my ward for help, and with the one exception I mentioned before, none of them were rude or dismissive. They actually tried to help. Maybe it's not that all of us give in to our worst instincts behind a computer screen, but rather that certain personality types are attracted to internet boards in the first place, hence making their numbers over-representative of the general population. Hey, I like that idea. I think there may be something to it.

Maybe we can't discuss these touchy issues with our family, because they are so emotionally entangled. But I bet I could discuss it with other believers in real life without the problems that seem to occur on the net. I just don't, because I live pretty far from other LDS right now, and plus, I don't want to intrude something personal on them. I'm not that close to them to justify it.


And yes - we have progressed, morally, as a species. I do need to remember that as well. If we can just get through this current rough patch, maybe we'll survive yet. As much as I adore Robert Wright, you'd think I'd be more persuaded by his own optimism.

I think posting on boards like this and others can bring the worst out in us. I know it has with me and at times I need to go back and quickly edit stuff. Often I ask myself if I would really say these things were I speaking face to face with the person. I do not always succeed though.

On the other hand, there is the tribe aspect to any cultural group including LDS. It is often difficult to understand for those show still believe when someone rejects something they believes and lived. To confirm in the minds of those remaining that they are correct they must be able to declare the person who abandons the tribe as strange, odd, mixed up and mistaken. Religion, politics, cultural norms etc. all have this element.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Beastie...

You know, I really do believe there is something to the idea that what we bring into our awareness cretes our reality, and what this means to me in real life (smile) is that when we listen to the news we see a horrible world. When we interact with the really nasty LDS folks on a message board we forget that they are not really representative of what LDS folks are.

I know, many times I have had to step back and consciously remind myself that 99% of the LDS people I know are nothing like what we may see on a MB.

And pretty much every time I watch TV I get totally depressed. I have to really make an effort to focus on the great things going on and the really great people.

Now, as you know I am not exactly always positive and it is really hard for me to stay hopeful... but I really do think somehow, some way there is the possibility we can overcome the problems we currently face.

It is not going to be easy but if we are determined it can happen! :-)

I think we need to go to lunch one of these days! I'm needing another injection of your insights! LOL!



~dancer~