suicide victims now unable to have chapel funerals

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: suicide victims now unable to have chapel funerals

Post by _harmony »

Alter Idem wrote:
Sono_hito wrote:I saw this on RFM http://www.exmormon.org/boards/w-agora/view.php?bn=exmobb_recovery&key=1171361196&newest=1171363118 (language) and wonder if anyone else has heard this?


If this is for real, then the local leadership is not following church policy. The family should complain to the Area Authority so that the Stake President and Bishop are set straight.


The family is very likely in shock, and the way they were treated by the bishop and SP just added to their pain. And what obedient family is going to challenge their bishop and SP? What obedient family is going to red flag themselves by going over the head of their local leaders and getting the leaders called on the carpet?
_Doctor Steuss
_Emeritus
Posts: 4597
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:57 pm

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Unfortunately the LDS church is not immune from the social stigma that has been placed on suicide. It is an unfortunate thing that affects many parts of society. There are very few schools that have allowed me to speak to the students about suicide prevention. There seems to be an “if you talk about it, it will happen” mindset. This bishop (and stake president) have potentially just contributed more to this family's pain and grief, and it is my hope that they realize their error and are able to make as much of a mends as possible with this family.

The church (or at least portions) are making strides to acknowledge suicide and depression though, and to raise awareness. I will be speaking at a stake fireside in about a month on the topic of mental illnesses and suicide prevention.


One more thing. Soto_hito, I would like to thank you for your use of “victims” in the thread title. Those who lose their lives to the battle of mental illness are truly victims. Mental illnesses are diseases that just claim their victims a bit differently than other diseases.

As someone who has walked in the dark night of the soul, and consoled many individuals at conferences for those who have lost loved ones, your word choice is much appreciated.

With sincere gratitude,
Stu
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_wenglund
_Emeritus
Posts: 4947
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:25 pm

Post by _wenglund »

Doctor Steuss wrote:Unfortunately the LDS church is not immune from the social stigma that has been placed on suicide. It is an unfortunate thing that affects many parts of society. There are very few schools that have allowed me to speak to the students about suicide prevention. There seems to be an “if you talk about it, it will happen” mindset. This bishop (and stake president) have potentially just contributed more to this family's pain and grief, and it is my hope that they realize their error and are able to make as much of a mends as possible with this family.

The church (or at least portions) are making strides to acknowledge suicide and depression though, and to raise awareness. I will be speaking at a stake fireside in about a month on the topic of mental illnesses and suicide prevention.


One more thing. Soto_hito, I would like to thank you for your use of “victims” in the thread title. Those who lose their lives to the battle of mental illness are truly victims. Mental illnesses are diseases that just claim their victims a bit differently than other diseases.

As someone who has walked in the dark night of the soul, and consoled many individuals at conferences for those who have lost loved ones, your word choice is much appreciated.

With sincere gratitude, Stu


Hi Stu,

I wonder if part of the "social stigma" surrounding psychological issues stems from naming them with such foreboding terms like "mental illnesses" and "mental deseases", and by considering those suffering therefrom, as "victims". These terms suggest to the mind that the psychological issues are entirely beyond the control or choices of the sufferer, and perhaps even to some degree beyond the interventions of trained professionals. To me, it wraps psychological conditions in a shroud of relative hopelessness, placing those directly affected, as well as those associated therewith, almost entirely at the mercy of the affliction. I see this perception as wrapping in on itself, and somewhat robbing the sufferers of the very hope and means for becoming mentally healthy.

As I understand things, these terms and perception are artifacts from the Freudian philosophy which, since the mid 1970's, has increasingly been discredited.

There are many in the profession (like Dr. Aaron Beck--the father of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and Dr. William Glasser--the father of Reality Therapy and Choice Theory), who prefer to view psychological issues in terms of cognitive distortions, chemical imbalances, dysfunctions, disorders, poor choices/social skills, etc.. This view (and the interventions based on this philosopy) tends re-empowers the sufferer and often provides great hope--particularly in light of the scientifically documented track record that shows a relatively impressive rate of success in treat.

Just a thought.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

P.S. I once suffered from deep depression for a number of years, and I have been restored to health and happiness thanks in large part to this new philosophy and its associated interventions.
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Plutarch wrote:Why do all of you care? You are avowed enemies of the Church, each in your individual ways.

P


I am NOT an "avowed enemy of the Church". I am offended by your statement. (Not that you probably care, but for what it's worth, I am.)

Why do you view me that way?
_Mephitus
_Emeritus
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm

Re: suicide victims now unable to have chapel funerals

Post by _Mephitus »

wenglund wrote:
Sono_hito wrote:I saw this on RFM...


If it was stated on RFM, then it must be true. Gossip is the most reliable sorce for information known to humankind--or, at least that is the impression I get from many RFMers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


I was merely curious if this was just a fluke post/gossip. or if it had any substance to it. This isnt something that i would think that people would generally joke about.

and wade, my step-father is a neurologist. He has alot of information on the brain chemistry involved with many mental illnesses that I've been able to read up on. Yes, there are some that are psychosomatic (ill be honest that i don't know the statistics that are being gathered on the ratio). But many of them have problems arising from imbalances in the chemistry of the brain itself. They are unable to help this with mere strength of will or "dealing with it". Usualy the most effective treatment is dealing first with the imbalances within the brain, and then working through the problems that arose while in that succeptable state.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

wenglund wrote:Hi Stu,

I wonder if part of the "social stigma" surrounding psychological issues stems from naming them with such foreboding terms like "mental illnesses" and "mental deseases", and by considering those suffering therefrom, as "victims". These terms suggest to the mind that the psychological issues are entirely beyond the control or choices of the sufferer, and perhaps even to some degree beyond the interventions of trained professionals. To me, it wraps psychological conditions in a shroud of relative hopelessness, placing those directly affected, as well as those associated therewith, almost entirely at the mercy of the affliction. I see this perception as wrapping in on itself, and somewhat robbing the sufferers of the very hope and means for becoming mentally healthy.

As I understand things, these terms and perception are artifacts from the Freudian philosophy which, since the mid 1970's, has increasingly been discredited.

There are many in the profession (like Dr. Aaron Beck--the father of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and Dr. William Glasser--the father of Reality Therapy and Choice Theory), who prefer to view psychological issues in terms of cognitive distortions, chemical imbalances, dysfunctions, disorders, poor choices/social skills, etc.. This view (and the interventions based on this philosopy) tends re-empowers the sufferer and often provides great hope--particularly in light of the scientifically documented track record that shows a relatively impressive rate of success in treat.

Just a thought.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

P.S. I once suffered from deep depression for a number of years, and I have been restored to health and happiness thanks in large part to this new philosophy and its associated interventions.


An intriguing post, Wade. Of course, if one does not recognize a problem, one cannot work to correct it.
_Doctor Steuss
_Emeritus
Posts: 4597
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:57 pm

Post by _Doctor Steuss »

Thank you Bro. Englund for your thoughtful response.

I wonder if part of the "social stigma" surrounding psychological issues stems from naming them with such foreboding terms like "mental illnesses" and "mental deseases", and by considering those suffering therefrom, as "victims".


Perhaps. But I fail to see how such terms would cause problems when heart disease, kidney disease, lung disease, degenerative diseases, cardiovascular diseases, etc., fail to stir up the same stigma. The same can be applied to “illnesses” as well (and I don't think the very name of NAMI is doing more to perpetuate the very stigma they are trying to lessen). I also don’t feel there is stigma caused due to the word “victim” for those who are a victim of abuse, a victim of robbery, a victim of fraud, etc.

These terms suggest to the mind that the psychological issues are entirely beyond the control or choices of the sufferer, and perhaps even to some degree beyond the interventions of trained professionals.


And to many, they are entirely beyond the control or choices of the sufferer. Many people who suffer from depression do not choose to do so. Many (if not all) people who suffer from bipolar disorder did not choose to do so. As far as I know, people who suffer from schizophrenia did not choose to do so. So, I fail to see the problem of such suggestive nuances. And, to some, they are indeed beyond the interventions of trained professionals as well. The success rate for treating mental illnesses is not 100%. Psychology and psychiatry are art forms as well as sciences.

To me, it wraps psychological conditions in a shroud of relative hopelessness, placing those directly affected, as well as those associated therewith, almost entirely at the mercy of the affliction. I see this perception as wrapping in on itself, and somewhat robbing the sufferers of the very hope and means for becoming mentally healthy.


What of alcoholism being labeled a disease? Does this cause alcoholics to lose hope? Does it cause them to think they are entirely at the mercy of their affliction? When in the throngs of depression, it is easy to blame oneself for everything wrong in the world (including everything wrong [emotionally, physically, and mentally] with oneself). Knowing that it is a disease can remove that portion of the blame game, and help acknowledge that intervention is indeed needed. Once it is realized that it is a disease that one is suffering from, there is no longer the need to adhere to the mantra “snap out of it” which is shouted by some who do not understand. Acknowledging that something is a disease does not rob hope. Lack of understanding of that disease, and treatment options does.

As I understand things, these terms and perception are artifacts from the Freudian philosophy which, since the mid 1970's, has increasingly been discredited.


This is possible. All I have is the anecdotal evidence from the conferences I have attended, and the treatments I have received from many psychologists and psychiatrists in which these terms have been used.

There are many in the profession (like Dr. Aaron Beck--the father of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, and Dr. William Glasser--the father of Reality Therapy and Choice Theory), who prefer to view psychological issues in terms of cognitive distortions, chemical imbalances, dysfunctions, disorders, poor choices/social skills, etc.. This view (and the interventions based on this philosopy) tends re-empowers the sufferer and often provides great hope--particularly in light of the scientifically documented track record that shows a relatively impressive rate of success in treat.


Personally, if some one told me that I had “distortions” or “dysfunctions” or that my bipolar disorder and mild schizophrenia were the result of poor choices/social skills, I would be quite offended. To me, such terms are far more damaging and cause far more social stigma than terms like “illness” and “disease.” Chemical imbalances however is a term that I favor highly, and perhaps would be a less stigmatizing word than “mental illnesses” and “mental diseases.” I’ll have to give that a bit of thought; it might be a better term for my future discussions. Thank you.

I don’t doubt the success in these treatment methods. They are essentially a “physical therapy” for an injured organ (the brain). And I can see how telling someone that their lack of mental health is due to poor choices/social skills, cognitive distortions, or dysfunctions could potentially re-empower them and give them hope. But, there can be damage in giving false hope to someone that needs a far more drastic intervention.

Just a thought.


And you have indeed given me much to think about, for which I thank you.

P.S. I once suffered from deep depression for a number of years, and I have been restored to health and happiness thanks in large part to this new philosophy and its associated interventions.


I congratulate you on your success. It is always inspiring to hear of individuals that have conquered depression. If anything gives hope to those currently in its grasp, it is knowing that there have been others that have fought the battle and won.

-Stu
"Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead." ~Charles Bukowski
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

Sono_hito wrote:yeah, i can see how it might be a maverik move.

If this is in fact a new standing, it would be much like the catholic stance on suicide. That once its taken place the person is forever damned as it is considered a mortal sin the likes of murder (self murder in this case).

If there is such a new stance, it would sadden/anger me greatly that they would do this. I used to suffer from depression so bad i nearly commited suicide on a few instances. So i know VERY well what the circumstances surrounding this can be like. It can be one of the most emotionaly painfull deaths a person can do for their family's.


What gets me is that there is nothing in the LDS canon that speaks about suicide...unless you want to go on the blanket statement of "thou shalt not kill". Still, if the LDS religion speaks about eternal progression, and the person who committed suicide is so ill that they really are not seeing the ramifications of what they are doing, then how can this bishop be justified in doing what he's doing?

Sono, I've been there too. I know others who have been there. When I see someone on the edge like that, I try to give them hope, because there is hope. To me, there's always hope. It's sad that this had to happen.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Post by _Sam Harris »

Plutarch wrote:Why do all of you care? You are avowed enemies of the Church, each in your individual ways.

P


I'm sure there's a GA butthole just waiting for you to stick your head up it, Plutarch. Get a clue.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
_Sam Harris
_Emeritus
Posts: 2261
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:35 am

Re: suicide victims now unable to have chapel funerals

Post by _Sam Harris »

wenglund wrote:
Sono_hito wrote:I saw this on RFM...


If it was stated on RFM, then it must be true. Gossip is the most reliable sorce for information known to humankind--or, at least that is the impression I get from many RFMers.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-


Yes Wade, everyone who goes to RFM does so just to tell lies about the church due to things like self-hatred and personal sin.

Can people be serious on this thread? Perhaps this actually happened. It's not about bashing the church as a whole, even nonmos agree this is a point of concern for current LDS.
Each one has to find his peace from within. And peace to be real must be unaffected by outside circumstances. -Ghandi
Post Reply