Anyone reading the FairWiki?

[_Notoriuswun]

One of the current MORG explanations is that perhaps the "Jewish" DNA was effectively bred out. This is insane. Trace amounts of "Jewish" DNA would still distinguishable if this were the case - a fact which no apologetic dares to answer.

Sorry Notoriuswun. Science is not on your side here.

1) If a tiny colony of Lehites entered a massive native population, their DNA would be bred out over 2,600 years. While that scenario has big problems as an interpretation of the Book of Mormon, it is perfectly square with science.

2) A Lehite DNA signature would [probably] not be distinguishable even if it were found. But this is a red herring, since the vast majority of DNA lineages are already accounted for in a way that rules out a recent Jewish component. The origin of Native Americans is indisputably Asian and very, very, ancient.

Yeah but that is the point.

If a TINY group were to enter the local DNA pool, over a long period of time their DNA would become fairly transparent. In the Book of Mormon, it paints the picture that they were the only ones really. There was no "outside" groups really...ie they were the Native Americans. Scientifically, this just doesn't jive.

[_The Dude]

I slightly disapprove of this type of generalization.

Yes, it is a generalization. But where it is true, it is appropriate in my opinion. When David Stewart originally used the term he was referring to the folks who recruited Tom Murphy to appear in their video. I think it was an accurate representation of their fundamentalist views.

I think however, at the very least, it is cherry picking of scientific data to suit their own needs. Science hasn't (and probably won't) ever prove that the Flood occurred...The fundies have their own scientific Achilles heal to deal with...it just happens to be in archaeological science, rather than DNA science. While the Mormons have both areas to refute.

EVs have loads of DNA evidence to deal with. Unless they accept evolution and modern geography which disproves the Biblical creation accounts and the Flood, they're avoiding the implications of the DNA science which they wield against Mormons.

Interesting to note that not one event given in the Book of Mormon has been independently verified...while the Bible is full of them.

And it's not just about one holy book vs. another. It's about the beliefs derived from the book, and most Christians who go after the LDS have beliefs that are at least as un-scientific as traditional Book of Mormon historicity.

[_fubecabr]

Uh, not really. If Jews didn't intermarry with the local population they would still all be very Semitic looking (dark hair, olive skinned, etc). How does a population of Jews from the Middle East end up with Blond hair and blue eyes in Europe? By marrying and mixing with the Indo-European population. That's where the diversification came from. Ashkenazi Jews were the lighter skinned Jews of Central Europe while the Sephardi were Jews who were darker skinned in the Iberian Peninsula. There are many other subgroups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_ethnic_divisions

Blond hair and blue eyes are recessive. Therefore, europe would start looking like jews rather than the other way around.

Intermarriage doesn't affect the ability to track genetic markers. I'm pale-skinned, blue-eyed, with light brown hair. Even if I were to procreate with an african american woman, my sons would not inherit any of her traits in the Y chromosome. The Mitochondrial DNA is passed on intact from mothers to her children.

Mutations occur in both the Y-chromosome and mitochondrial DNA over time. If you go back far enough, we are all related in some way. If you compare how similar two people's mitochondrial DNA and/or Y-chromosome is, then you can tell app. how long ago that you would have a common ancestor.

Native Americans and Jews do have common ancestors, but you have to go back 30,000 years which is well outside of the timeframe required by the Book of Mormon.

[_Notoriuswun]

EVs have loads of DNA evidence to deal with. Unless they accept evolution and modern geography which disproves the Biblical creation accounts and the Flood, they're avoiding the implications of the DNA science which they wield against Mormons..

The primary issue...one of evolution and its relevance to dna is harder to disprove. Apes have a genetic identity that is 99% inline with modern human DNA. Now you and I both know what this implies, yet there is still a very slight amount of doubt that humans evolved from apes.

But agreed that they aren't really looking at the science in a fair and objective way.

And it's not just about one holy book vs. another. It's about the beliefs derived from the book, and most Christians who go after the LDS have beliefs that are at least as un-scientific as traditional Book of Mormon historicity.

I know that.

But it is historically accurate that Christ lived and died...that is it is very likely that it could have occured. It is also a prime argument that alot of Christians base their arguments around. It isn't historically accurate that any of the events in the Book of Mormon ever happened.

In the end its semantics anyway. ;)

[_asbestosman]

The hits just keep on coming:

"Most of the time, the problem arises not because of wild consumerism, but because something really bad happens," said Darren Bush, an economist and law professor at the University of Utah.

Like being a member of church that charges admission for its most important ceremonies?

No, like someone gets laid off or someone gets sick.

[_Bond...James Bond]

The hits just keep on coming:

"Most of the time, the problem arises not because of wild consumerism, but because something really bad happens," said Darren Bush, an economist and law professor at the University of Utah.

Like being a member of church that charges admission for its most important ceremonies?

No, like someone gets laid off or someone gets sick.

So bankruptcy is nailed down to sickness and being laid off? These events (sadly) happen all the time in America. Why does Utah have so many more bankruptcies than the rest of the US?

Asbestosman, does tithing has anything to do with Utah's bankruptcies?

[_Gazelam]

So bankruptcy is nailed down to sickness and being laid off? These events (sadly) happen all the time in America. Why does Utah have so many more bankruptcies than the rest of the US?

Asbestosman, does tithing has anything to do with Utah's bankruptcies?

Its because the members don't listen to the Prophets and Apostles. How many times have they told the members to have a food storage, to keep a savings, and to not live beyond their means?

[_Notoriuswun]

So bankruptcy is nailed down to sickness and being laid off? These events (sadly) happen all the time in America. Why does Utah have so many more bankruptcies than the rest of the US?

Asbestosman, does tithing has anything to do with Utah's bankruptcies?

Its because the members don't listen to the Prophets and Apostles. How many times have they told the members to have a food storage, to keep a savings, and to not live beyond their means?

A savings account in addition to the 10% of their income they are required to give? This seems a bit steep.

I recently figured out that if every Mormon were able to take their tithing and invest it, they would be pretty well off by the time they were ready to retire:

http://exmormonforums.com/showthread.php?t=331

[_Bond...James Bond]

Its because the members don't listen to the Prophets and Apostles. How many times have they told the members to have a food storage, to keep a savings, and to not live beyond their means?

I'll buy the last part, in this materialistic culture people often try to live outside the economic bracket their salary might constrain them too. But food storage isn't going to help with car payments and the mortgage, and an extra 10% may just help otherwise responsible people start that nest egg.

[_Gazelam]

If people can go a week on their food storage as opposed to grocery shopping, that's like an extra $250.00 for a Large Mormon family.

Also, how much can a family save a month if they lose the stupid cell phone, and cable tv. Not to mention owning a car, or surviveing on the old one as oposed to leaseing or trading in for a new model every 3-5 years.

Keeping up appearances or keeping up with the Joneses can realy suck up a budget.

Im just as guilty of this as anyone, but I know whats right even if I don't apply it like I should.