"Today you will be with me in Paradise"

[_Jersey Girl]

Hello All,

I know this is likely to frustrate me going in but here are my questions. When Christ says to the thief on the cross:

"Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)

What do LDS interpret this as meaning? What is Paradise? Please define any terms you wish to use.

Thanks,
Jersey Girl

[_bcspace]

I know this is likely to frustrate me going in but here are my questions. When Christ says to the theif on the cross:

"Today you will be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43)

What do LDS interpret this as meaning? What is Paradise? Please define any terms you wish to use.

This paradise is where the righteous go after death. A welcome promise for the thief! However, it is not the place of salvation as indicated by Jesus in John 20:17. The Father was not there (where Jesus and the thief were).

Thus, the thief on the cross example is not an indication of deathbed repentence leading to salvation nor an indication of salvation immediately after death. The thief still has to have the gospel taught to him and he must be baptised (or have it done by proxy and he accepts). I think it likely he did hear and accept.

Salvation comes after the resurrection and judgement. This paradise is where the righteous spirits wait until the resurrection. Hell (or rather, the gehenna of hell) is where the wicked wait. The gospel is preached there (1 Peter 3:18-21, 4:6, D&C 138, etc.)

[_Jersey Girl]

Thanks, bcspace. I'm already frustrated reading your comments but I'll try to fend it off. How can you say that "the gehenna of hell" is the place where the wicked wait when Gehenna was an actual geographical location on earth?

Jersey Girl

[_Jersey Girl]

bcspace,

When you say that the Father was not where Jesus and the thief were, you are referring to Christ appearing and not yet ascended to his Father? Where was the thief?

Jersey Girl

[_bcspace]

Thanks, bcspace. I'm already frustrated reading your comments but I'll try to fend it off.

I appreciate that. Do give it the 'ol college try.

How can you say that "the gehenna of hell" is the place where the wicked wait when Gehenna was an actual geographical location on earth?

In the Greek, Hell is the underworld and paradise is actually a part of it as well is the place where the wicked go to be punished. Gehenna, the earthly place, is a Greek word with a Hebrew root for the "Valley of Hinnom's son". It directly refers to a place where garbage was piled and burned (because it stank to high heaven) and being there was equated to the punishments the wicked might receive in the afterlife. Hence, Gehenna is also the place of punishment in the underworld.

Me personally? I prefer simply to say "hell". Others like to make the distinction and I try to accomodate them.

When you say that the Father was not where Jesus and the thief were, you are referring to Christ appearing and not yet ascended to his Father? Where was the thief?

Indeed. In John 20:17 we see Christ telling Mary that he had not yet ascended to his Father which means that where he and the thief were was not where the Father is. Depending on how much the thief knew and accepted and if he needed to repent (maybe he was falsely accused?), he may already have been part of the first resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53) in which case he has received judgement and salvation.

If not, his spirit remains in paradise awaiting the resurrection.

[_Gazelam]

Excellent answer BC.

Heres the definition from Mormon Doctrine:

That part of the spirit world inhabited by righteous spirits who are awaiting the day of their resurrection is called paradise. It is "a state of happiness, . . a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow." (Alma 40:11-14; 4 Ne. 14; Moro. 10:34; D&C 77:2, 5.) Then, in the day of the first ressurection, "the spirits of the righteous" shall be reunited with their bodies, and in immortal glory "the righteous shall have perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness." (2 Ne. 9:13-14.)

" When men are prepared, they are better off to go hence,"the Prophet said. " The spirits of the just are exalted to a greater and more glorious work; hence they are blessed in their departure to the world of spirits. Enveloped in flaming fire, they are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith." (Teachings) p.326)

"To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), is a statement our Lord is purported to have made to the theif on the cross, Actually, as the Prophet explains, "there is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was - This day shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about and answer your inquiries" ( Teachings, p.309), meaning, of coarce, that such teaching and answers would be given, as is nearly always the case, by the mouths of his servants appointed so to serve.

If the Bible is correctly translated, Paul had a spiritual experience in which he was "caught up into paradise" (2 Cor. 12:4), tohugh it may be that this should read that he was caught up to the celestial world, receiving a comparable manifestation to that vouchsafed to by the Three Nephites. (3 Ne. 28:13-15.)

[_Bryan Inks]

Excellent answer BC.

Heres the definition from Mormon Doctrine:

That part of the spirit world inhabited by righteous spirits who are awaiting the day of their resurrection is called paradise. It is "a state of happiness, . . a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow." (Alma 40:11-14; 4 Ne. 14; Moro. 10:34; D&C 77:2, 5.) Then, in the day of the first ressurection, "the spirits of the righteous" shall be reunited with their bodies, and in immortal glory "the righteous shall have perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness." (2 Ne. 9:13-14.)

" When men are prepared, they are better off to go hence,"the Prophet said. " The spirits of the just are exalted to a greater and more glorious work; hence they are blessed in their departure to the world of spirits. Enveloped in flaming fire, they are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings, and motions, and are often pained therewith." (Teachings) p.326)

"To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), is a statement our Lord is purported to have made to the theif on the cross, Actually, as the Prophet explains, "there is nothing in the original word in Greek from which this was taken that signifies paradise; but it was - This day shalt thou be with me in the world of spirits: then I will teach you all about and answer your inquiries" ( Teachings, p.309), meaning, of coarce, that such teaching and answers would be given, as is nearly always the case, by the mouths of his servants appointed so to serve.

If the Bible is correctly translated, Paul had a spiritual experience in which he was "caught up into paradise" (2 Cor. 12:4), tohugh it may be that this should read that he was caught up to the celestial world, receiving a comparable manifestation to that vouchsafed to by the Three Nephites. (3 Ne. 28:13-15.)

So Mormon Doctrine is now considered an authorative source? Yay, that means there is some fun coming your way.

[_harmony]

From what I was told, by none other than DCP himself, the Savior did not say these words. We have no words from the Savior. These words were put in the Savior's mouth years later by men who either weren't there or who wanted him to say certain things. We don't know what the Savior said on the cross, or if he said anything at all.

[_twinkie]

I always took it at face value- that Jesus said the thief would be with him in paradise meant exactly that. Harmony brings up an interesting point, though!

[_Gazelam]

There is a day of judgement that occurs after the millinium. Everyone is waiting for it.