The Sin Next to Murder - Critics

[_asbestosman]

Ahhhh..

I would say that those who were led astray by the craftiness of men still sinned in some sense. I think that had they not been led astray, they'd still be punished based on how they allowed their hearts were susceptible to such craftiness.

Of all the difficulties I had with the church this attitude was the most problematic.

Basically... those who don't believe in Joseph Smith, are choosing to be evil, are doing something wrong or they would believe, their hearts are in the wrong place, they sinned, were following Satan, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

That's not what I said. Nice try though. I don't presume to know what constitutes sufficient grounds to reject the truth of the gospel and be a sin. When I speak of those who are led astray by men, I mean those who in some sense either had sufficient knowledge, or at least should have known better than to be led astray. I think there are even various degrees of allowing this to happen with the worst ones being the sons of perdition which is fortunately a rare situation.

As to letting people in who didn't believe in the church, but were sincere, I would say they have nothing to fear. Certainly there is no need for me to look down upon them. If your conscience is truly clear, then I believe you can dwell with God. Mormon9:3 comes to mind. I think people will dwell where they are most comfortable. It's best for all to continually examine themselves and their lives so that when the final day comes they will not regret life wishing they had done things differently. Be careful that you aren't lying to yourself as Korihor did. Korihor knew there was a God but he allowed himself to be deceived. I'm not saying that your situation is the same as his. I don't know and God won't tell me. I'm just using Korihor as an example of why to be cautious about not deceiving yourself.

[_asbestosman]

I know where I stand and why. And I suspect you do, too. That's all that matters, isn't it?

It is if you live your life in such a way that you will not regret things at the end--not that there is an end.

[_Runtu]

I know where I stand and why. And I suspect you do, too. That's all that matters, isn't it?

It is if you live your life in such a way that you will not regret things at the end--not that there is an end.

I will never regret following my conscience.

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi TD, "...next to murder..." Is this 'New Mormon Doctrine'?? I thought that was all-things-sexual??

If i correctly picked up from Harmony, not sure, that "leading/influencing folks away fro LDSism is next to murder..." then the Mormon church is in more dire straights than i imagined.

Let them rave. It will lead to their own self-destruction. Should be a sign to hangers-on to let-go before they expose themselves and their dependents to more spiritual toxitity... Very sad to have invested so much in such stock. Then to watch the bottom fall out and be helpless to be of assistance... Real concerned, Roger

[_truth dancer]

Hi Runtu..

Nicely put. Sometimes I wonder why believing members don't see how obvious it all is. Why, I wonder, can't they see the church for what it is? And then I catch myself. I realize that this is the same attitude the members have. Maybe I'm odd, but even when I believed, I didn't think it was a sin to reach different conclusions about the church; I figured that many people's experiences and thought processes and desires weren't conducive to their accepting Mormonism. Now that I'm out, I'm more convinced of that. But yes, it is dismaying, and more than a little offensive, to hear this attitude so plainly stated. But then it's an honest statement, so I can't be too critical.

I know where I stand and why. And I suspect you do, too. That's all that matters, isn't it?

Yes.. that is all that matters; doing the best we can, embracing truth as much as possible, following our conscious, being true to our deepest sense of goodness. I don't know what more one can do.

What is interesting is that now that I am more comfortable with my beliefs and have come to a place of peace, the attitude that non-believers are Satan following sinners doesn't much bother me. (I think it is nonsense but it doesn't matter).

But... it REALLY bothered me as a believer. Each time I heard the excuse for non-belief I shuddered inside. My heart, mind, and conscious just could not accept this idea/doctrine/belief.

It is, as you suggest a reflection of following one's own sense of goodness rather than trying to embrace a belief that seems wrong or unhealthy. The idea that if one doesn't believe it is because of some sin, or hard heartedness, or not being obedient enough, or not praying hard enough, or praying incorrectly, or praying too often, or not doing whatever... just so didn't work for me.

Ohhhh contrats on your Godhood! ;-)
~dancer~

[_asbestosman]

The idea that if one doesn't believe it is because of some sin, or hard heartedness, or not being obedient enough, or not praying hard enough, or praying incorrectly, or praying too often, or not doing whatever...

Or maybe it hasn't been presented to them the proper way yet, or maybe God is trying the faith and charity of the faithful by not immediately giving the spiritual witness to people whose hearts really are in the right place (or will be), or maybe many of us agree with you that it's not for us to judge individuals.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Roger... :-)

Hi TD, "...next to murder..." Is this 'New Mormon Doctrine'?? I thought that was all-things-sexual??

I don't think it is "New Mormon Doctrine" but Mike was giving an alternative perspective! :-)

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

Hi Asbestos man..

Or maybe it hasn't been presented to them the proper way yet, or maybe God is trying the faith and charity of the faithful by not immediately giving the spiritual witness to people whose hearts really are in the right place (or will be), or maybe many of us agree with you that it's not for us to judge individuals.

Well, maybe it is just me but I have never heard leaders suggest these were possiblities! ;-)

Seems to me there is quite a bit of judgment as to why the world doesn't embrace Mormonism.

But, I will personally vote for you to author an LDS book promoting such kindness! :-)

~dancer~

[_SatanWasSetUp]

Did anyone read the Nov 2006 issue of Sunstone?

In it there is an interesting article by Mike Ash (who is a totally great guy), regarding the "Sin Next to Murder". Mike suggests the sin next to murder may be leading people away from the gospel.

He suggest more than members struggling with the difficult issues, they struggle with their perception of deceit and betrayal once they discover them.

How to remedy the problem...

Have believing member slowly and delicately disclose the issues with appropriate faith promoting information... "inoculate" members just like we do with immunizing children. Give them small doses, carefully, and gently so members will be immune to the crisis of faith.

Miike writes, "The ideal would be to see inoculation introduced in official Church venues - although arguments could be made that such a program is not pragmatic."

I think this is exactly what Bushman did in his latest Joseph Smith bio... he gave just enough information to admit there were some tiny issues, gave the apologetic spin on it, so the information is out there with all the justifications. When people hear more of the story, they fall back on Bushman.

I think this is the classic way PR folks deal with difficult issues coming out into the open with clients.

There is something uncomfortable for me though, that this sort of strategy needs to be considered.

It is as if there is a plan needed to share truth because members will not be able to handle the truth or the reality of what the church is; or there needs to be a way to keep people believing even though the stuff seems pretty difficult to believe.

Just seems to me it should not take such manipulation to believe God's one and only true church.

~dancer~

I don't think even TBMs would agree that "leading people astray" was the sin next to murder. They certainly put it way up there as one of the top sins, possibly in second place, but think of all the things Mormonism considers to be sin. There is a lot of competition for the top spot that I'm not even sure murder has a lock on #1:

Masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, disobedience, not believing Joseph Smith was the greatest thing since sliced bread, drinking coffee, disobedience, watching football on sunday, slacking off on your home teaching, oral sex, not accepting a calling, smoking, not wearing a white shirt, not obeying you church leaders, disobedience, tattoos, more than one earring, ignoring the stake president when he calls you in for a disciplinary meeting, wearing jeans to the stake dance, voting for Clinton, calling Hinckley "Gordo" or "Wrinkley", reading No Man Knows My History, partaking of the sacrament with your left hand, disobedience, swimming on Sunday, and not following the prophet are all sins that compete with murder and leading people astray for the number 1 or number 2 spot on the Greatest Sin Ever List.

[_Roger Morrison]

S-W-S, your list:

Masturbation, pornography, homosexuality, disobedience, not believing Joseph Smith was the greatest thing since sliced bread, drinking coffee, disobedience, watching football on sunday, slacking off on your home teaching, oral sex, not accepting a calling, smoking, not wearing a white shirt, not obeying you church leaders, disobedience, tattoos, more than one earring, ignoring the stake president when he calls you in for a disciplinary meeting, wearing jeans to the stake dance, voting for Clinton, calling Hinckley "Gordo" or "Wrinkley", reading No Man Knows My History, partaking of the sacrament with your left hand, disobedience, swimming on Sunday, and not following the prophet are all sins that compete with murder and leading people astray for the number 1 or number 2 spot on the Greatest Sin Ever List.

Cute, but ya forgot: Church Approved books, and reading Sonya Johnson's "House Wife to Heretic"--not approved...

As nice as most Mormons are it seems the LDS Institution to which they/we belong--to some degree, if only by attachment here--is becoming less-nice. By that i suggest less "charitable" as Paul defined in 1 Cor, 13:1-8.

Becoming more rigid, frigid, detail oriented, letter-livers and Pharisitical in attitude and practice, it appears the mission as BY inferred: "...to make bad folks good, and good folks better..." has devolved to bring guilt to the introvert and shame to the extrovert. Thereby homogenizing LDSism into a 21st Century Puritanism.

Today's LDS appeal seems not to "Goodness" but to authoritative regimentation of think-alike males who seem to enjoy donning a Sunday uniform to look-alike in long sleeve white shirts, and conservative ties. By choice or fiat...

Anyyyyway, it just seems so silly to equate exterior appearance and conformity to "God's" way and "The Two New Commandments"... Warm regards, enjoy the day... Roger