Coffin nails

[_micah]

With the whole Mitt Romney thing, theology aside, what do you all see as the top ten nails in the coffin?

Sure, I can say that I believe God is green and someone else can believe he is red. Who knows. All that we could do is discuss it, not come to a conclusion.

However, if a Church claims that their core scripture was obtained by someone putting their face in a hat and translating off of a record written by ancient inhabitants of America, but that record contains errors that were not created until 1200 years later (with the writing of the KJV of the Bible), this is a problem.

What do you see as the top 10 non-theology related difficulties for the Church to explain away.

Micah

[_rcrocket]

With the whole Mitt Romney thing, theology aside, what do you all see as the top ten nails in the coffin?

Sure, I can say that I believe God is green and someone else can believe he is red. Who knows. All that we could do is discuss it, not come to a conclusion.

However, if a Church claims that their core scripture was obtained by someone putting their face in a hat and translating off of a record written by ancient inhabitants of America, but that record contains errors that were not created until 1200 years later (with the writing of the KJV of the Bible), this is a problem.

What do you see as the top 10 non-theology related difficulties for the Church to explain away.

Micah

1. The Church follows a God who was a common criminal and died like one on the cross.

2. The Church follows a God who claims he was brought back from the dead after three days of being dead.

3. The Church follows a God who claims that he expiates the sins of all those who call on His name.

4. The Church follows a God who claims to have been born of a virgin, when we can really figure out what went down.

5. The Church follows a God, once dead, whom his followers claim appear to them from time to time -- mysteriously.

6. The Church follows a God who claims to have appeared to his followers before He was even born.

7. The Church follows a God whose apostles claimed to have raised the dead, healed the lame, and bound the hearts of the broken.

8. The Church follows a God who forgives sins, no matter how bad they are.

9. The Church follows a God who insists that we can love him by keeping His commandments.

10. The Church follows a God who lives.

11. The Church follows a God who loves each of us, including those who hurt and injure His anointed by saying foul things about them on the Internet anonymously.


P

[_Polygamy Porter]

With the whole Mitt Romney thing, theology aside, what do you all see as the top ten nails in the coffin?

Sure, I can say that I believe God is green and someone else can believe he is red. Who knows. All that we could do is discuss it, not come to a conclusion.

However, if a Church claims that their core scripture was obtained by someone putting their face in a hat and translating off of a record written by ancient inhabitants of America, but that record contains errors that were not created until 1200 years later (with the writing of the KJV of the Bible), this is a problem.

What do you see as the top 10 non-theology related difficulties for the Church to explain away.

Micah

1. The Church follows a God who was a common criminal and died like one on the cross.

2. The Church follows a God who claims he was brought back from the dead after three days of being dead.

3. The Church follows a God who claims that he expiates the sins of all those who call on His name.

4. The Church follows a God who claims to have been born of a virgin, when we can really figure out what went down.

5. The Church follows a God, once dead, whom his followers claim appear to them from time to time -- mysteriously.

6. The Church follows a God who claims to have appeared to his followers before He was even born.

7. The Church follows a God whose apostles claimed to have raised the dead, healed the lame, and bound the hearts of the broken.

8. The Church follows a God who forgives sins, no matter how bad they are.

9. The Church follows a God who insists that we can love him by keeping His commandments.

10. The Church follows a God who lives.

11. The Church follows a God who loves each of us, including those who hurt and injure His anointed by saying foul things about them on the Internet anonymously.


P

The "C"hurch follows a god who drowns his own children for not keeping their rooms clean.

[_Mary]

Plutarch, can I ask (and it is an interesting issue for me) whether you feel that the Joseph Smith element of the church is superfluous?
I ask sincerely, because I think you have outlined a good reason why many stay in the church, despite having problems with it.

I had to leave because the Joseph Smith element seemed to be the foundation of the beliefs, and thus it was the core for me, as to why I was
Mormon and didn't belong to any other christian denomination.

(I do take your point about christians ALSO believing some quite unusual things and perhaps that was your main point rather than the one above, still interested to know your thoughts though)

For me

1. There's more evidence of Joseph's character, and the evidence isn't always positive, (and if I had conclusive evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a 'con-man' for instance then I would reject him for the same reason). There's a certain expection of men of God, that they should actually 'behave' like men of God in terms of righteous living.

2. I have problems believing that the Book of Mormon is anything but a 19th century fabrication.

(There's 2, and they are the main ones for me)

[_rcrocket]

I don't know how to respond except to say that I don't think Joseph Smith is superfluous. I think he is the greatest man who ever lived on this earth, save Jesus Christ alone. None of those who witnessed Jesus Christ with him, or angelic beings with him, or the plates, ever recanted. They may have left the Church, yes, but the Pauline letters have several examples of people leaving the Church despite the ministrations of Christ's apostles.

Moreover, the New Testament contains several examples of the apostles fighting between themselves (Galatians 2: Paul calls Peter "false"), of apostles rejecting revelation (Galations 2: Peter going against the vision he had received before meeting Cornelius). The Old Testament has examples of prophets being deceived (Joshua 9) and of generally messing up (David and Bathseba; Solomon and his idols). So, I don't expect Joseph Smith to be perfect.

P

[_Rollo Tomasi]

I think he [i.e., Joseph Smith] is the greatest man who ever lived on this earth, save Jesus Christ alone.

That's a bit of a stretch. I submit that his sexual peccadillos, financial scandals, and oppression of freedom of speech, knocks him down a few pegs on the "greatness" scale.

[_Runtu]

That's a bit of a stretch. I submit that his sexual peccadillos, financial scandals, and oppression of freedom of speech, knocks him down a few pegs on the "greatness" scale.

I suppose I would think he had some of the greatest accomplishments in history if he actually had restored the true church, etc.

[_rcrocket]

I think he [i.e., Joseph Smith] is the greatest man who ever lived on this earth, save Jesus Christ alone.

That's a bit of a stretch. I submit that his sexual peccadillos, financial scandals, and oppression of freedom of speech, knocks him down a few pegs on the "greatness" scale.

I suppose, if you lack faith.

But, if one were to presuppose that polygamy was a commandment of God, then the rest of your armadillos don't seem like so much.

P

[_Yoda]

But, if one were to presuppose that polygamy was a commandment of God, then the rest of your armadillos don't seem like so much.

P

Even if polygamy wasn't a commandment of God, this could be one of those things that is chalked up to a human flaw like David, Solomon, etc. It doesn't take away from the overall good things that Joseph accomplished.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

But, if one were to presuppose that polygamy was a commandment of God, then the rest of your armadillos don't seem like so much.

Does that presupposition include marrying other men's wives?