Coffin nails

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_Mephitus
_Emeritus
Posts: 820
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:44 pm

Post by _Mephitus »

Not really, it's true or false regardless.

But it does drastically affect his credilbity in assessing the validity of his claims.

This credibility depends to a large degree on the a priori assumptions we hold about the nature and morality of God (e.g., does God really devalue women so) and the expected morality of God's emmissaries (e.g., using a position of power to extract sex from young girls and others who accept you as an authority figure).

It depends also on whether we apply the same standards or morality, propriety, etc. to Joseph Smith as we would to others in his position and the degree to which we're willing to relax those standards in his case.


The credibility issues have become one of my major points within what i see as issues of Mormon base structure. When we have a man that was regularly shown to be dishonest or to have a very strong lack of credibility. It should then likewise put everything he does under an understandable level of scrutiny to make sure he isnt leading someone with a lie. There are many people today who claim to do great and holy things in the name of one god or another. Only that when you look at their lives as a whole, they can be shown in nearly every aspect to be dishonest. To me, just because you claim to be doing holy work, does not excuse you from what should be considered very standard societal practices of judging that persons credibility.

As one such example, if you hired a person that had a long history of drug use and had been convicted several times of felony distribution of controlled substances. Would you be readily willing to hire that person for a job that would allow him to have little supervision for much of his shift? Im not saying that people don't deserve a chance, but if they had not shown credibilty in any area as of yet, what reasoning would you have to give them a good level of trust for something as simple as a job? If we where to liken this to Joe and the happenings of his life, we are taking the claims of someone that has a long history of being a professional con-man. All for the claims of something that could potentialy be even more important than our individual lives! wouldn't you want to make sure that such a person and their credibilty stand up to make sure you're not following someone who just wants power?

The more i learned about Joseph Smith's history, the events of his life, and the ties they had to the invention of Mormonism. The more i see a steady continuation of his old behavior. Possibly even amplified due to his new stature of power. As such, even after his claims of being a prophet, i see little to give him credit to be attributed to someone that could be considered for such an important posistion. Lies, desceit, misdirrection, manipulation, ect. that continued through his life.

Im going to use a phrase that will make me want to wash my mouth out with soap...but here goes...WWJD? Jesus though the entirety of the Bible would teach and practice personaly. But at no time was he credited with lying to anyone. Take the issue with the money changers in the temple. If someone would have come up to him afterwards, would be have lied or twisted the facts? He led an open and honest life on what he did and practiced. He kept his story straight even when pressed by dissenters. Even those that where within his inner circle. (im getting a bit o/t, ill try to get back)

Within this entire argument it stands a bit more on not whether or not we could call Joseph Smith a pedophile (which personaly i would say he was) but much more on his credibility and his use of controll that he had over people for use of his own purposes. I think it was Bob Mccue that said that within cult groups, such controll over sex is common place. But generaly it is understood openly within such groups that when the leader calls "so and so" to be with him. That its what is generaly expected. Sexual favors and controll over sexual acts could be considered as payment for following the group tenants. Even if Joseph Smith was trying to get someone else (such as the issue originaly with FA's mother), that he would take such a young girl in place of her mother shows just how far he was willing to go for sexual gratification. That he took several other equaly young girls supports this.
One nice thing is, ze game of love is never called on account of darkness - Pepe Le Pew
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Seven wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Zakuska wrote:Whats wrong with Marrying other men's wives? David did it.


If I recall, according the LDS doctrine David lost his exaltation for marrying another man's wife. Course he had that man killed.

But this is one of the major flaws in LDS apologetics. Pointing out bad things that people did inthe Bible, or flaws in biblical issues does not help the LDS Church or Joseph Smith. It just shows that Smith did some of the very rottne things or has some of the same flaws that the Bible and the Bible charecters did.


Great post. :) Nice to see a rational believer.
by the way, love the avatar!
(I am a huge Jason Bourne fan and heard #3 will be coming soon......Those are movies I can watch again and never get tired of)



Thanks and I will look forwart to number 3 as well. But I have to tell you, while the movies are great the books they come from are ten times better. Robert Ludlum's Jason Bourne was much older, and more deadly. And he did not kill off the woman Jason meets in number one, Marie. In the book Marie is a Canadian ecomomist who Jason meets in Geneva and first uses her as a hostage but later they fall in love and she is a great asset in helping him. In book two they ended up married. If you like spy novels get the books. You will not be disappointed.
_Seven
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:52 pm

Post by _Seven »

Jason Bourne wrote:

Thanks and I will look forwart to number 3 as well. But I have to tell you, while the movies are great the books they come from are ten times better. Robert Ludlum's Jason Bourne was much older, and more deadly. And he did not kill off the woman Jason meets in number one, Marie. In the book Marie is a Canadian ecomomist who Jason meets in Geneva and first uses her as a hostage but later they fall in love and she is a great asset in helping him. In book two they ended up married. If you like spy novels get the books. You will not be disappointed.


Thanks for the tip. I love to read and have almost an obsession with books. (mostly true stories) I will add those to my library. I was so disappointed they killed off Marie. She was perfect for him. :( I have a co worker that had seen "Bourne Identity" and "Bourne Supremacy" and said she "didn't get them" and couldn't finish them. Gasp! I no longer ask her opinion of what to see at the movies. :)
_Seven
_Emeritus
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Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:52 pm

Post by _Seven »

Sono_hito wrote:

Within this entire argument it stands a bit more on not whether or not we could call Joseph Smith a pedophile (which personaly i would say he was) but much more on his credibility and his use of controll that he had over people for use of his own purposes. I think it was Bob Mccue that said that within cult groups, such controll over sex is common place. But generaly it is understood openly within such groups that when the leader calls "so and so" to be with him. That its what is generaly expected. Sexual favors and controll over sexual acts could be considered as payment for following the group tenants. Even if Joseph Smith was trying to get someone else (such as the issue originaly with FA's mother), that he would take such a young girl in place of her mother shows just how far he was willing to go for sexual gratification. That he took several other equaly young girls supports this.


I think it's a poor accusation against Joseph to say he was a pedophile by critics. I do believe evidence suggests he had sex with almost 15 year old Helen Mar Kimball, but to suggest she was a pre pubesent girl is not likely. The age of menstruation for girls back then was older than today, but that doesn't mean she physically hadn't developed into a woman. This varies greatly among young girls today and most of his wives were not 14. I agree that he liked younger women (as some men are attracted to physically) and chose teenagers that were easily manipulated.

The power he had over those that worshiped him is disturbing. When members handed over their wives or daughters to an already married man, it's evident their focus was not on Christ and his teachings on honesty, chastity, .... Jsoeph Smith was a "God" to these young girls and new converts. This is a troubling issue that can't be explained away by apologists.
_Seven
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Post by _Seven »

liz3564 wrote:
Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Plutarch wrote:But, if one were to presuppose that polygamy was a commandment of God, then the rest of your armadillos don't seem like so much.

Does that presupposition include marrying other men's wives?


I spoke with Dale on FAIR/MAD about this. (Not to be confused with Uncle Dale...although both Dales are RLDS)

The RLDS view, and the apologist view also seems to fall in line with this, is that Joseph's polyandry was part of the Law of Adoption. He was basically sealing himself to everyone to make sure that they were all together in the Celestial Kingdom. He sealed himself to men, too.

This practice was done away with under Brigham Young.


Why were the polyandrous marriages done in secret and with instruction to keep it from Emma if they were only Law of Adoption? I will have to break out my Compton book, but I can't recall Joseph sealing himself to the husbands of these women listed as wives. Emma wouldn't have trouble with Law of Adoption sealings so it doesn't make sense he told the women to hide it from her. I'll have to skim through it and see if I am confusing the single women with married ones.

I agree that there were many Law of Adoption sealings done but I view them as we do sealing children to parents.
Were the sealings done with the polyandrous wives viewed any differently than the men? Also, in Compton's books there were a few cases of outrage over proposals made to some of the wives. Orsen Hyde for example was told to find a new wife after Joseph had married his first wife Miranda Hyde.
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Seven wrote:
I agree that there were many Law of Adoption sealings done but I view them as we do sealing children to parents.
Were the sealings done with the polyandrous wives viewed any differently than the men? Also, in Compton's books there were a few cases of outrage over proposals made to some of the wives. Orsen Hyde for example was told to find a new wife after Joseph had married his first wife Miranda Hyde.


Marinda never lived with Joseph Smith as wife. Marinda and Hyde were sealed for time and eternity in 1846. (Compton, pp. 238-43). Smith may have been sealed to Hyde for eternity only for a time. (Compton, 238.) I see no evidence that Orson was told to get another wife, although he most certainly did that -- a plural wife while producing more children with Marinda.

Plutarch
_rcrocket

Post by _rcrocket »

Seven wrote:Jsoeph Smith was a "God" to these young girls and new converts. This is a troubling issue that can't be explained away by apologists.


Where did any woman say this?

Plutarch
_Gazelam
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Post by _Gazelam »

From the testimonies I have read, Joseph would ask the parents permission, and would ask the women he proposed to to ask God if it was right, after receiving an answer to their prayers to the affirmative, they then said yes to marriage.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato
_Yoda

Post by _Yoda »

Seven wrote:Why were the polyandrous marriages done in secret and with instruction to keep it from Emma if they were only Law of Adoption? I will have to break out my Compton book, but I can't recall Joseph sealing himself to the husbands of these women listed as wives. Emma wouldn't have trouble with Law of Adoption sealings so it doesn't make sense he told the women to hide it from her. I'll have to skim through it and see if I am confusing the single women with married ones.

I agree that there were many Law of Adoption sealings done but I view them as we do sealing children to parents.
Were the sealings done with the polyandrous wives viewed any differently than the men? Also, in Compton's books there were a few cases of outrage over proposals made to some of the wives. Orsen Hyde for example was told to find a new wife after Joseph had married his first wife Miranda Hyde.


I have not read Compton's book, and I'm not as well versed as I should be regarding Church history during this period. Maybe Uncle Dale or one of our other historians can shed some light on this.

My understanding was that Emma was aware of the majority of Joseph's plural marriages, with the exception of a few of the earlier ones. She wasn't happy about it, and publicly rejected it many times, but she was aware this was going on. It caused her great heartache, but her love for Joseph transcended this.
_micah
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Post by _micah »

Gazelam wrote:From the testimonies I have read, Joseph would ask the parents permission, and would ask the women he proposed to to ask God if it was right, after receiving an answer to their prayers to the affirmative, they then said yes to marriage.


Helen Mar Kimball's writings made it as though she was against it and did it only because of her father. She resented it, but later came to accept it as her lot in life. Doesn't really sound like God affirmed it to her as being right.

Micah
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