MAD's Chopping Block---Take 2

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Who Will the MADmods Ban Next?

 
Total votes: 0

_beastie
_Emeritus
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Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

The other point to make is just how a critic posts a comment. At times, they do look for punishment. The critics who survive are those who debate in polite and respectful posts. Now I know that the lds posters can cross the line too but I tend to make allowances for them because it is not easy to be always defending the church.


Yes, you make allowances for them, as does almost every other LDS poster, as well as the moderators, who seem to adhere to this as their guideline.

But the problem is that your evaluation of this situation - ie, that believers only engage in bad behavior due to being provoked by the situation - is completely subjective and biased in itself. An argument can be made that people who CHOOSE to participate on a board where they KNOW their cherished belief systems are going to be criticized ought to be in control of themselves enough not to react with personal attacks and extraordinary offense. In other words, if you can't take the heat, why the heck do you keep going into the kitchen?

That was always my problem with FAIR - I believed that the participants were adults cognizant of the fact that their beliefs were going to be criticized, and yet they wanted to participate in a "fair" analysis of those criticisms. I naïvely didn't realize that what LDS seem to primarily want is a board with a lot of support and believer cheerleading, with a controlled input from critics - controlled in order to minimize the threat.

I made the point here, and sput started a brouhaha about it on MAD, that I believe the reasons believers prefer a board that is run by a moderating team openly biased to believers is due to the fact that they really do have a harder job than the critics. You seem to concede the same point. (of course when I made the point, it caused hysteria on the part of quite a few MADdites) No, it's not easy to be always defending the church, as I say over and over, which is the easier job? Criticizing Joseph Smith' polyandry or justifying it? It's a harder job for a reason. If what critics were saying was silly nonsense based on demonstrable lies, then apologists would have an easy job, be relaxed and happy, and have no problem with a board run by neutral moderators. But it's not - critics are usually making statements that are true, and the debate is only over the interpretation of events that all knowledgeable participants - including believers - concede occurred - such as the polyandry, or the lack of supporting archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon (hence the encouragement to find mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon, rather than vice versa).

The only difficult job for critics is to try and find a way to make these criticisms while at the same time massaging the believers' wounded feelings and egos in order to avoid being personally attacked and banned. Some critics have the energy to invest in that effort, others of us do not and are either banned or voluntarily leave the site out of disgust. It seems to me that believers almost WANT to be patronized, and I won't patronize adults in possession of their full faculties.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Post by _why me »

beastie wrote:
The other point to make is just how a critic posts a comment. At times, they do look for punishment. The critics who survive are those who debate in polite and respectful posts. Now I know that the lds posters can cross the line too but I tend to make allowances for them because it is not easy to be always defending the church.


Yes, you make allowances for them, as does almost every other LDS poster, as well as the moderators, who seem to adhere to this as their guideline.

But the problem is that your evaluation of this situation - ie, that believers only engage in bad behavior due to being provoked by the situation - is completely subjective and biased in itself. An argument can be made that people who CHOOSE to participate on a board where they KNOW their cherished belief systems are going to be criticized ought to be in control of themselves enough not to react with personal attacks and extraordinary offense. In other words, if you can't take the heat, why the heck do you keep going into the kitchen?

That was always my problem with FAIR - I believed that the participants were adults cognizant of the fact that their beliefs were going to be criticized, and yet they wanted to participate in a "fair" analysis of those criticisms. I naïvely didn't realize that what LDS seem to primarily want is a board with a lot of support and believer cheerleading, with a controlled input from critics - controlled in order to minimize the threat.

I made the point here, and sput started a brouhaha about it on MAD, that I believe the reasons believers prefer a board that is run by a moderating team openly biased to believers is due to the fact that they really do have a harder job than the critics. You seem to concede the same point.

The lds over at MAD seem to be constantly playing the black pieces and this is for a reason. A critic generally attacks the church head on without providing the opportunity for a lds person to play the white pieces. All organizations have a good side and a bad side and for a critic the art is also in seeing the good along with the bad and balance his or her post accordingly. I have been a MAD for quite some time now and although I don't post intellectual comebacks I do try to post from human perspectives when defending the lds church. The point for me is to play the white pieces sometimes when I am also playing the black pieces. But for many, the constant playing of the black pieces can be rather tiring and it can fray the nerves.

It is always easier to attack then to defend. And it is here that we have the problem with MAD ldsers. It is a constant defense for something that they believe strongely in.
_cacheman
_Emeritus
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:22 pm

Post by _cacheman »

I imagine that if Hammer feels too much heat, that he might just abandon his moniker and start using a new screen name. I don't recall his former screen name being banned, but I might have missed it.

cacheman
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

cacheman wrote:I imagine that if Hammer feels too much heat, that he might just abandon his moniker and start using a new screen name. I don't recall his former screen name being banned, but I might have missed it.

cacheman


Wait a sec... He had a former screen name? What was it, Cacheman?
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

The lds over at MAD seem to be constantly playing the black pieces and this is for a reason. A critic generally attacks the church head on without providing the opportunity for a lds person to play the white pieces. All organizations have a good side and a bad side and for a critic the art is also in seeing the good along with the bad and balance his or her post accordingly. I have been a MAD for quite some time now and although I don't post intellectual comebacks I do try to post from human perspectives when defending the lds church. The point for me is to play the white pieces sometimes when I am also playing the black pieces. But for many, the constant playing of the black pieces can be rather tiring and it can fray the nerves.

It is always easier to attack then to defend. And it is here that we have the problem with MAD ldsers. It is a constant defense for something that they believe strongely in.


I'm not sure I follow you - on a board such as MAD, how are critics attacking the church without providing the opportunity for an LDS person to "play the white pieces"? The entire board is formulated in order to provide the opportunity for the LDS to play the white pieces.

Of course critics are going to constantly "play the black pieces". That's what makes them critics - they are critical of certain LDS claims. No believer should be so naïve as to post on a board such as MAD and not expect to have to constantly deal with black pieces. If people cannot emotionally handle that, and have to be "allowed" to misbehave to a certain extent, then you end up with a board that has the problems MAD does.

No, it is not always easier to attack then defend. It all depends on which side the evidence lies. It is far easier to defend evolution, for example, than to attack it.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_cacheman
_Emeritus
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:22 pm

Post by _cacheman »

Wait a sec... He had a former screen name? What was it, Cacheman?

Oh, I could just tell you, but that wouldn't be much fun would it? Let's just say that his former identity had some run ins with the mods on FAIR more than a few times.

cacheman
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Post by _beastie »

Oh, I could just tell you, but that wouldn't be much fun would it? Let's just say that his former identity had some run ins with the mods on FAIR more than a few times.


Maybe THAT'S what happened to Will Shryver, or whatever his last name is.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Mister Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 5604
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:13 pm

Post by _Mister Scratch »

cacheman wrote:
Wait a sec... He had a former screen name? What was it, Cacheman?

Oh, I could just tell you, but that wouldn't be much fun would it? Let's just say that his former identity had some run ins with the mods on FAIR more than a few times.

cacheman


Huh. Intriguing. Well, I'm all for a good game of "Twenty Questions." My guess is that Hammer is a.k.a. "RockyTerrain." Is that a good guess, or what?

Beastie: Did you not see the weird tidbit on Schryver offered up by "Vici" in another thread? If Schryver is around, I would expect to see him posting in the Vogel/UD/Metcalfe thread in the Celestial Forum....
_cacheman
_Emeritus
Posts: 225
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 6:22 pm

Post by _cacheman »

Huh. Intriguing. Well, I'm all for a good game of "Twenty Questions." My guess is that Hammer is a.k.a. "RockyTerrain." Is that a good guess, or what?

Ooooh.... that is a good guess! You might be right. I don't know if he has had other names, but it's not the one that I'm aware of.


cacheman

edit to add: You now have only 19 questions remaining!
_Fortigurn
_Emeritus
Posts: 918
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:32 pm

Post by _Fortigurn »

why me wrote:I don't think that the critics realize just how tough it is to be under a constant barage of gunner posts.


Are you kidding? We have to put up with constant abuse from Mormons on that board.

It can be tough and yes, you are right, one should step back and see the human behind the post.


If Mormons on that board are finding it difficult to remain Christlike, then they should back off and do something else with their lives until they're ready to behave as Christians. If they don't, the moderators should suspend them until they do.

I think that Pahoran is a good guy and most likely a great guy to know.


That sheds a lot of light on how you view his behaviour.

He has been consistent in his abuse...


Corrected.
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