Non-reporductive sex of married couples within Mormonism.

[_harmony]

EDIT: i am very tempted to post a 2nd one as a secondary joke. shall i?

Uhhh... no. We'd like to keep this discussion going in this forum and not have it moved to Telestial. Thanks.

[_Julie]

you want my view on the idea of whats appropriate in bed between 2 consenting adults?

Simple:


EDIT: i am very tempted to post a 2nd one as a secondary joke. shall i?

That's about how it is in "THe Real World". If you have to repent afterwards may as well be a nun, a munk or a freaking rock for that matter! :0

[_Yoda]

I just randomly ran across this. (convenient eh?) Its a speach that came out in jan of this year.
http://www.byui.edu/Presentations/Trans ... _Clark.htm

Heres the main point. Even within marraige, you must restrain yourself as you did prior to marraige

"There are some who will tell you that when you marry you get the green light on intimate behavior with your spouse, but such teaching is another of Satan’s lies. Of course, after you marry, the Lord commands you to consummate your intimate, personal relationship and to cleave unto each other. That physical relationship is sacred and holy. It is part of becoming one, wholly and fully united in heart and soul. It is part of building your eternal family. It is pleasing before the Lord; but—and this is a very important qualifier—it must be established in love and kindness, in patience and unselfishness.

Your intimate relationship is just that—a relationship. It is something you create together. Both husband and wife should experience it as joyous and fulfilling. It must be established, therefore, without exploitation, without abuse of any kind, and without self-indulgence. Satan would have you give way to the natural man in your marriage—the man of passion, of carnal desire, of gratification of every impulse and appetite. But remember, the natural man is an enemy to God. You simply cannot give way to the natural man and ever hope to have a union that is holy, a love that is eternal and pure, or a marriage that is blessed and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Thus, restraint, control, and bridling your passions are just as important after marriage as before."

So be guilty about wanting sex, even if its in marraige...wtf?

Believe me, Sono, I do understand your "WTF?" reaction. Take a look, however, at the section I bolded.

I really think that what the bretheren were trying to speak to in this talk without going into blatant detail, are sexual acts where one partner may feel exploited or abused. There are areas of BDSM that can fall into this category.

My personal feeling....and this is more of "the gospel according to Liz"...LOL....is that sex between a married couple should be a celebration of the love you share for each other. If you are practicing something that detracts from that, then it's probably not appropriate. In other words, if you get more caught up in the act itself, rather than concentrating on pleasing your partner, then you're out of the realm of how the Lord envisioned sexual relations to be utilized.

[_Runtu]

Believe me, Sono, I do understand your "WTF?" reaction. Take a look, however, at the section I bolded.

I really think that what the bretheren were trying to speak to in this talk without going into blatant detail, are sexual acts where one partner may feel exploited or abused. There are areas of BDSM that can fall into this category.

My personal feeling....and this is more of "the gospel according to Liz"...LOL....is that sex between a married couple should be a celebration of the love you share for each other. If you are practicing something that detracts from that, then it's probably not appropriate. In other words, if you get more caught up in the act itself, rather than concentrating on pleasing your partner, then you're out of the realm of how the Lord envisioned sexual relations to be utilized.

I agree with both of you. To me, the issue is this: if one of you feels exploited, it's not good. But if you are both comfortable and fulfilled with what you are doing, it's nobody's business.

I would suspect that even areas of BDSM can be a celebration of love. I don't know, but I'm just saying that what some people see as loving, others may not. That's why it's important for couples to work these things out themselves. The whole idea of "if you have to ask, you shouldn't be doing it" seems rather unnatural and intrusive to me. But that's just the gospel according to John, or maybe the Joy of Sex according to John. ;-)

[_Mephitus]

It might surprise you to hear, that in BDSM the one being flogged has all the power. not the other way around. (not my thing, but i know well enough about it)

I think that a talk on unrighteously claiming dominion over a spouse might be a bit more useful than attempting to make people feel bad for lusting after their own wife/husband.

[_Yoda]

It might surprise you to hear, that in BDSM the one being flogged has all the power. not the other way around. (not my thing, but i know well enough about it)

This is true. And, BDSM, if practiced correctly and safely, involves massive communication.

I think that a talk on unrighteously claiming dominion over a spouse might be a bit more useful than attempting to make people feel bad for lusting after their own wife/husband.

Agreed.

I honestly think that NO ONE in the bishop or stake president's office has any business knowing what goes on behind the bedroom doors of a consenting married couple. It should be a "don't ask don't tell" policy. ;)

[_Jason Bourne]

Elder Hafen on unnatural sex acts from a recent Ensign:

Touch Not Their Unclean Things. Too many Latter-day Saints today somehow believe they can stand with one hand touching the walls of the temple while the other hand fondles the unclean things of the world. We can’t do that. As Alma said, “Touch not their unclean things” (Alma 5:57). I plead with you, put both hands on the temple. Put your arms around the temple, and hang on for dear life to your family dream. If you don’t, the tigers will come at night and tear your dreams apart."

"....show your profound respect for that love—and for the doctrines about eternal love and family life—by bridling your passions. Don’t be deceived by the false idea that anything short of the sex act itself is okay. That is a lie, not only because one step overpoweringly leads to another, but because even touching another person’s body with sexual intent is part of the intimacy that is kept holy by the sanctuary of chastity. Please also beware of unnatural sexual acts that are just as immoral, if not worse, than traditional fornication or adultery."- Elder Bruce C. Hafen, “Your Longing for Family Joy,” Ensign, Oct. 2003, page 28

http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_sex_war.htm





Better to die then live live unchaste:

"You will recall Alma’s teaching his son Corianton that unchastity is the most serious offense there is in the sight of God, except for murder or denying the Holy Ghost. (See Alma 39:5.) President Clark, in a conference address in October 1938, said: 'Chastity is fundamental to our life and to our civilization. If the race becomes unchaste, it will perish. Immorality has been basic to the destruction of mighty nations of the past; it will bring to dust the mighty nations of the present. You young people, may I directly entreat you to be chaste. Please believe me when I say that chastity is worth more than life itself. This is the doctrine my parents taught me; it is truth. It is better to die chaste than to live unchaste. The salvation of your very souls is concerned in this.' (In Conference Report, Oct. 1938, pp. 137-38). Now, my dear friends, we know there is nothing new in what we have said. These things are time-tested; they are true. To this we testify"
-First Presidency Message "We Believe in Being Chaste," Ensign, Sept. 1981, page 3

More on various sex sins:

"Why can’t someone go into a missionary training center or into the mission field, repent of sins, and fix the problems there? Perhaps the best answer to that question is 'Because the Lord says you can’t.' The First Presidency has given clear direction that this will not be the case. What does it mean to be totally clean? It means that you would never be involved in the serious transgression... or any other sexual activities, or even transgressions of perhaps a lesser degree, but still of great seriousness, such as petting, (masturbation) or pornography of any kind. It means we must shun immodesty, flee from bad thoughts, and avoid even the appearance of sin."

"Several weeks into his mission, in total agony for his sins, (a missionary) confessed them to his mission president. What a sad experience! He felt greatly relieved that he’d finally confessed, but with all his heart wished he had done so earlier. With great sadness for all, the young man was sent home. One can only imagine the pain, humiliation, and regret. How his parents and family wept! How the heavens must have wept!"-Elder Gene R. Cook, "Worthy to Serve," New Era, May 1994, page 4, widely distributed to new missionaries entering the mission field

And I love this gem....commit sex sins and you may not ever forgive yourself:

"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself." -Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes

On Masturbation:

"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82.

It is really hard to repent of sexual sins

"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings." - Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155

For these and more see:


http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_sex_war.htm

[_ajax18]

I can't imagine they think anal is ok. Anyone heard anything on that?

Maybe President Hinckley could do an interview on the Howard Stern show. I'm sure the topic would come up.

[_ajax18]

There never was an official doctrine of policy on the matter. Sources please.

I'm not sure there has ever been an official doctrine or policy on anything then. The old FAIR apologist tried to answer the question of what was and wasn't Church doctrine. In that they included member views and practices that while not specifically stated by the 1st presidency as doctrine or not, were assumed to be doctrine unless otherwise indicated by the 1st presidency. So according the FAIR articles, no statement against a common legend or theory meant that it was doctrine.

[_harmony]

{snip}
For these and more see:

http://www.i4m.com/think/sexuality/mormon_sex_war.htm

If our leaders spent as much time and energy worrying about teaching us the first two laws of the gospel, and less time worrying about our sex lives, we'd all be better off.