Is FARMS/FAIR/MA&D trying to gain control of the church?

[_Mercury]

To a degree they already have. In my two year experience as an LDS missionary, any serious missionary that wanted to be seen as taking a scholarly approach, in the end laughably, turned to FARMS and the hero worship of Nibley. Sadly, I was one of them.

Interpretation of contradictions usually would strengthen the testimony of the mark, missionaries usually ejaculating poorly written arguments on doubters during scriptural debates and farcical apologetic ceremonies.

So...Is Mormon apologetics steering Mormon theology? Possibly. This goes back to the chapel Vs. Internet Mormon classification system.

B H Roberts, himself a doubter at the end of his life was the archetypal apologist except Roberts actually was honest with himself and others, a quality lacking from present day Mormon shills. Instead of Roberts example involving honest examination of the facts we see doubt questioned and honest intelectual inquiry is far from the minds of the career liars for the lord. What FARMS is today is an outlet for those who seek honest answers to tough questions. Too bad they cannot deliver this but instead first harrangue the doubter and follow up with laughable mental gymnastics that would get you kicked out of any other educational institution. Instead BYU hangs onto its accreditation as a medallion of viability, hiding behind an educational institution named after a tyrant. FARMS, it seems now dictates the interpretation of Mormon history, incorrectly placing the context in the situation so as to appear favorable to the testimonies that are hanging by threads constructed of faith and falsely percieved reality.

In addition apologetic organizations seems to be a rallying point for the disaffected Mormons who see themselves as spiritual powerhouses unrecognised by the traditional Mormon hierarchy, a way for those such as Wade to feel they are important Mormons. Sadly this too is another power structure the Mormons are amassing, the retarded leading the retarded into spiritual battle with nothing more than styrofoam swords. They pump each other up in an effort to garner ego, fostering their false sense of importance.

In the end what we have is an organization affiliated with the Mormon structure of power that is beneficial in keeping those seeking any answer besides "Joe made it all up". In this there is power, albeit a microcosm of a marginalised and ever shrinking religion.

[_Yoda]

I think that FARMS will always be a significant part of the Church, and the apologetic side of the Church from a scholastic perspective. However, to be honest, I don't how seriously FARMS is really taken outside of BYU. ;)

I think that MAD is wholly insignificant as far as the Church goes. Even when it was associated with FAIR, it was a relatively small blip on the radar of the LDS organization.

I think that when Scott Gordon actually takes the link to the MAD board off of the FAIR website, you're going to see a drop in numbers over time.

MAD has already lost the importance of association it once had. It's lost its' "teeth" as a branch of FAIR. It's just another private message board run by people who happen to be LDS. That's how it's viewed by the Church, and how it will continue to be viewed by the Church, if the Church really chooses to view it with any type of significance at all.

[_guy sajer]

I think that FARMS will always be a significant part of the Church, and the apologetic side of the Church from a scholastic perspective. However, to be honest, I don't how seriously FARMS is really taken outside of BYU. ;)

I think that MAD is wholly insignificant as far as the Church goes. Even when it was associated with FAIR, it was a relatively small blip on the radar of the LDS organization.

I think that when Scott Gordon actually takes the link to the MAD board off of the FAIR website, you're going to see a drop in numbers over time.

MAD has already lost the importance of association it once had. It's lost its' "teeth" as a branch of FAIR. It's just another private message board run by people who happen to be LDS. That's how it's viewed by the Church, and how it will continue to be viewed by the Church, if the Church really chooses to view it with any type of significance at all.

I think that FARMS is largely irrelevant. My guess is that a survey of the faithful would find that fewer than 10% have ever heard of FARMS with a smaller percentage saying they'd ever read anything by FARMS.

Consider how many members in the developing world are likely to have heard of or read anything by FARMS.

Besides that, most FARMS publications are in English only (I believe), which rules out most all non-English speakers, and they're written at a high level of pedantic verbosity, which rules out all without a university educated level of English.

Plus most member don't give a sh** about the things FARMS gives a sh** about. They are simple folk happy to take the gospel at face value and do not feel the need to be told by some FARMS know-it-all that Prophets cannot be trusted and one must look to FARMS for real answers and understanding.

FARMS is irrelevant in a religion that almost sets the standard for irrelevance.

[_why me]

FARMS is irrelevant in a religion that almost sets the standard for irrelevance.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The lds church is irrelevant to those who wish to mock and spit on it. But for many people who know the lds and for the lds, themselves, the church is a force for good in the community and in the world. Lets look at it this way: In america, many youth suffer from a STD virus because of loose sexual behavior. The lds position has been: remain chaste. Force of good.

In the world, alcohol consumption is shyrocketing and delivering harmful effects to many familes. The lds position: don't drink alcohol. Force for good.

In this world today, the meaning of greed has taken new forms of life. The lds position: be a good steward of your money. Force of good.

In this world today, with the pornofication of syle and porn in society and the grief that comes with it, the lds position says: Dress modestly and avoid porn. Force of good.

I can go on. But I think that I listed enough to see and digest the relevance of the lds church in today's world.

[_guy sajer]

FARMS is irrelevant in a religion that almost sets the standard for irrelevance.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The lds church is irrelevant to those who wish to mock and spit on it. But for many people who know the lds and for the lds, themselves, the church is a force for good in the community and in the world. Lets look at it this way: In america, many youth suffer from a STD virus because of loose sexual behavior. The lds position has been: remain chaste. Force of good.

In the world, alcohol consumption is shyrocketing and delivering harmful effects to many familes. The lds position: don't drink alcohol. Force for good.

In this world today, the meaning of greed has taken new forms of life. The lds position: be a good steward of your money. Force of good.

In this world today, with the pornofication of syle and porn in society and the grief that comes with it, the lds position says: Dress modestly and avoid porn. Force of good.

I can go on. But I think that I listed enough to see and digest the relevance of the lds church in today's world.

But there's nothing above you've listed that can't be had from any number of other sources. The LDS Church offers almost no value-added to these debates in terms of fresh insights, understanding, etc.

That and the fact that 99.999% of humanity measures its interest in Mormonism in micro-give-a-shi*** combine to consign"God's truth" to complete, utter, and total, irrelevance.

[_Runtu]

But there's nothing above you've listed that can't be had from any number of other sources. The LDS Church offers almost no value-added to these debates in terms of fresh insights, understanding, etc.

That and the fact that 99.999% of humanity measures its interest in Mormonism in micro-give-a-shi*** combine to consign"God's truth" to complete, utter, and total, irrelevance.

I try not to mock and spit, but I have to agree that the church is pretty irrelevant and insignificant. I like Mormon theology, to be honest, with its promise of exaltation and its belief in the divine nature within us, but as practiced, it really doesn't do much to improve the human condition. What I figured out after leaving is that Mormonism doesn't so much make people better but instead makes people concerned about keeping up appearances and avoid dealing with the reality behind them.

As for the OP, I think FARMS is kind of like the Ministry of Excuses. The time when the church's truth claims could be plausibly defended has long passed, and now they're just making excuses.

[_Mercury]

I can go on. But I think that I listed enough to see and digest the relevance of the lds church in today's world.

You could go on, yes, but you would still be basing your religions "goodness" on poor assumptions and black/white thinking. Ethics, of which morality is a twisted reflection of is a demonstrably innacurate lens to view the world from.

Although your interpretation on the good things LDS theology forces its subjects into is at the surface helping individuals, it assists in the avoidance of "the world" and it fails in assisting the individual so as for them to lead a full life, throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Is all pornoography bad? No. It assists in the process of alleviating sexual frustration, something that would have prevented Joe from using his false power to molest, abuse and requisition other mens wives and daughters with.

Religion is itself a false system of authority based on false fears implanted in the Mark. You of course perpetuate these false fears in order to justify blatant sillyness.

And it is silly. No getting around that.

[_SatanWasSetUp]

FARMS is irrelevant in a religion that almost sets the standard for irrelevance.

Yes, you are absolutely right. The lds church is irrelevant to those who wish to mock and spit on it. But for many people who know the lds and for the lds, themselves, the church is a force for good in the community and in the world. Lets look at it this way: In america, many youth suffer from a STD virus because of loose sexual behavior. The lds position has been: remain chaste. Force of good.

In the world, alcohol consumption is shyrocketing and delivering harmful effects to many familes. The lds position: don't drink alcohol. Force for good.

In this world today, the meaning of greed has taken new forms of life. The lds position: be a good steward of your money. Force of good.

In this world today, with the pornofication of syle and porn in society and the grief that comes with it, the lds position says: Dress modestly and avoid porn. Force of good.

I can go on. But I think that I listed enough to see and digest the relevance of the lds church in today's world.

Certainly the church has some positive aspects for the members, and for member it is far from irrelevant. By irrelevence I think Guy meant in the grand scheme of things the LDS church is largely irrelevant. You notice this especially once you move outside of Utah. Consider how relevant the Jehovah's Witnesses are in your life and that will give you an idea of how relevant the LDS church is to everyone who is not a member, which accounts for roughly 99.6% of the world population. Now consider that FARMS is largely irrelevant within Mormonism and you begin to see that FARMS isn't even a blip on the radar screen.

[_guy sajer]

Is all pornoography bad? No. It assists in the process of alleviating sexual frustration, something that would have prevented Joe from using his false power to molest, abuse and requisition other mens wives and daughters with.

This is an interesting theory. Is there any empirical evidence backing this up?

I tend to think that pornography can, at times, play the kind of role you describe here. But I say this tentatively, and I don't want to oversell the hypothesis.

I also tend to think that masturbation perhaps does as much as anything else to promote fidelity in relationships. Instead of excortiating masturbation, the Bretheren ought to be encouraging everyone to do it. I'd guess if there were more monkeys spanking and vibrators humming, and less guilt attached to it, there would be significantly fewer marital problems around sex, less adultery, and less fornication.

[_Mercury]

Is all pornoography bad? No. It assists in the process of alleviating sexual frustration, something that would have prevented Joe from using his false power to molest, abuse and requisition other mens wives and daughters with.

This is an interesting theory. Is there any empirical evidence backing this up?

I tend to think that pornography can, at times, play the kind of role you describe here. But I say this tentatively, and I don't want to oversell the hypothesis.

I also tend to think that masturbation perhaps does as much as anything else to promote fidelity in relationships. Instead of excortiating masturbation, the Bretheren ought to be encouraging everyone to do it. I'd guess if there were more monkeys spanking and vibrators humming, and less guilt attached to it, there would be significantly fewer marital problems around sex, less adultery, and less fornication.

Exactly.

Bonobos use sexual stimulation to alleviate stress. Humans are no different.

As for empirical information, primatology would be a good source for this information.