Significant Questions of Belief

[_Yoda]

Gaz posed some questions to Scratch on another thread. I think these would be great for everyone to think about and answer.

All opinions are welcome!

Thanks, Gaz! These questions are great! :)

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

6. what happens to babies who die?

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

8. Is baptism essntial to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capasities?

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psycological effects of each of these views?

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

[_Yoda]

Sono's response from the other thread:

I think it might be interesting to play these questions off asatru. though feel free to continue this on a christian level of debate.

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future? Partialy, through the use of the witches of wyrd (the fates)

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's) The original flood story was from the sagas of gilgamesh which pre-date the christian flood story by many many years. Though there is theory that it could also be a re-write about the flooding of the euphrades river and a merchant that was caught in it.

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season? He was merely a man who did good things, nothing more.

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject) All shall move about the 9 worlds, which aesir or vanir claim them for what reasons, i do not know

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life? faith is merely a psychological aid, security comes from what strength and work you put into it

6. what happens to babies who die? see #4

7. The fate of the unevangelized. see #4

8. Is baptism essntial to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers? babtism is not needed

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capasities? While there are deeds more easily/commonly carried out by women, there is no clear-cut division of labors or clergy work.

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works? salvation is not needed. from what do we need to be saved?

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psycological effects of each of these views? The gods are either sons, or dirrect creations from the god that made up what is now the 9 worlds, ymir. The effect of this is that they hold a loose kinship of relation to ymir. As such, they are bound by rules of honour even amung enimies of the gods and giants.

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way? The only time in which a woman must submit is in time of home defense.(she must let him go) The man claims a life oath of defending the home no matter the cost. Other than that, she has equal say in all things, whether secular or spiritual.

I'll be giving my response a bit later this afternoon when my 3 year old isn't vying for my attention. LOL

I'm looking forward to everyone's responses on this.

[_Jason Bourne]

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

For me and my simple little non philosophical mind I cannot see how a perfect absolute knowledge of each and every act and detail of the future leaves us with free will. I believe God has knowledge of the major outcomes, can and will teak to make sure those come to pass and knows the impact of every decision we can make but not which ones we will make.

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

I do not know.

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

The New Testament teaches us he emptied himself of his glory and Godhood before he came to earth but I believe he was never an ordinary human just like us.

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

All. Strict predestination results in a horrifically monstrous God.

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

I believe that when one is justified they are saved. I believe sanctification takes a life time and more. One may be up and down on the path of sanctification but they are still justified if they stay in the saving relationship with Jesus Christ. if they abandon it then they may not be saved. Direction is all God cares about after one is justified.

6. what happens to babies who die?

They go be with God.

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

Depends

8. Is baptism essential to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

It is not essential.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capacities?

yes

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

Works sanctify us and generate rewards or Glories in LDS speak.

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psychological effects of each of these views?

Both

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

It would be nice if mine would to me but after 25 years of trying I realize when I submit to her it is really fun.

In seriousness, I believe in a joint relationship and working together equally on all things. I am not successful at this at all times.

[_truth dancer]

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

We are not reading the story, we are writing it... In other words, the future is yet unknown to our universe.

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

One must go back to the Epic of Gilgamesh since the Noachian flood story was taken from it to see if there was some sort of flood. There was certainly NOT a global flood of any sort.

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

All people are of the same "divine" realm... there is only one essense which is everything that exists, and our human form is one reflection of it.

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

None of the above! :-) The stories people make up about the afterlife are myths, ideas, imaginative wishes.

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

In LDS theology, one must assume they must endure to the end. The whole idea makes no sense to me.

6. what happens to babies who die?

The same thing as happens to all creatures when they die.

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

Same thing as everyone else who has ever lived.

8. Is baptism essntial to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

The idea that a God would require humans to go under water and say a special phrase in order to get into heaven is REALLy difficult for me.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capasities?

Why is this even a question? Of course... it is silliness to keep women out of such a work.

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

We all do our best.

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psycological effects of each of these views?

Are you talking about humans?

Humans are a creation within our universe... we have a long ancestry that, when understood gives us amazing insight into our nature, our world, and our universe.

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

Only in societies who still believe in owning women, who believe women are subhuman, who believe women are property to be bough and traded for their pleasure. You know, those societies who are run by men with power and control issues who need to degrade and demean women so they can feel powerful! (arrgghhhh).

:-)

~dancer~

[_gramps]

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

I don't believe in god.

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

I don't believe there was a Noah. Neither an ark.

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

There may have been a Jesus. He was not God's son, however he was conceived.

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

Atonement and salvation, the christian way, make no sense to me.

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

Ditto.

6. what happens to babies who die?

They die.

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

They die and were probably better off having not been evangelized.

8. Is baptism essential to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

Totally unnecessary. See above.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capacities?

If they desire to do so, why not?

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

Again, see above.

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psychological effects of each of these views?

Neither. He/she is a child of his/her parents who were children of their parents and so on. You get the picture.

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

Won't touch this one.

[Anonymous]

edit

[_Mister Scratch]

Gaz posed some questions to Scratch on another thread. I think these would be great for everyone to think about and answer.

All opinions are welcome!

Thanks, Gaz! These questions are great! :)

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

Yes.

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

The flood is purely allegorical.

3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

Neither.

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

All people can be "saved."

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

Neither.

6. what happens to babies who die?

They die. Plain and simple.

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

They die, too.

8. Is baptism essntial to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

This is really two questions. I'm unsure how I feel about the first Q., but as to the "infants or adults" bit, I think that the LDS Church should raise the baptism age to 21.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capasities?

Yes, absolutely.

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

I don't really know....

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psycological effects of each of these views?

What is the difference?

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

No.

[_Fortigurn]

I'd like to reply to Sono:

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's) The original flood story was from the sagas of gilgamesh which pre-date the christian flood story by many many years. Though there is theory that it could also be a re-write about the flooding of the euphrades river and a merchant that was caught in it.

Firstly, the flood story is Hebrew, not Christian. Secondly, the Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh as originally written did not contain a flood story at all. The flood story was added to the Epic by the Assyrians in the 7th century BC, postdating the Hebrew flood story (which was written no later than the 10th century BC). The Sumerian and Akkadian flood stories preceded the Hebrew flood story and share some narrative details, but there is no evidence of literary dependence on them in the writing of the Genesis account. It would be difficult to explain how the Hebrews would have had access to the cuneiform copies of the Akkadian and Sumerian myths, especially since they didn't read or write the language, and cuneiform had been an exclusively scribal language for centuries before the Hebrews were captured in the Babylonian exile of the 7th century.

The one flood story which the Hebrews could most plausibly have had access to would have been the 7th century Assyrian flood story which was added to the earlier text of the Epic of Gilgamesh borrowed from the Akkadians. But the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh is itself almost a direct copy of the Akkadian Atrahasis Epic (even to the extent of using the original hero's name, when the name of the hero in the Epic of Gilgamesh is different), and is radically different to the Genesis account.

And what reason can be provided to explain why the Hebrews accessed, assimilated, and actually corrected the fllood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh? Why borrow that part of the Epic, of all things, take it out and correct its inaccuracies, change it so substantially that there are almost no common details left, and expand it into something completely different?

Of all the flood stories of the Ancient Near East, the Biblical flood account is superior because it is scientifically credible and plausible, whereas the others are not:

* Sumerian: There are 7 days to build a completely enclosed ship of unspecified material and dimensions (but which contains people, sheep, and oxen at least), presumably with standard construction techniques such as tension trusses and longitudinal strength beams, which must survive heavy storms for 7 days, and a flood which has to cover Mesopotamia using only 7 days of rain.

There isn't enough time to build the ship, it lacks an opening for ventilation and light, or for the rain to flood Mesopotamia, and the ship wouldn't have the strength to survive heavy storms described in the Eridu Genesis ('all stormy winds gathered into one', and 'the evil wind had tossed the big boat about on the great waters').

* Akkadian: There are 7 days to build a completely enclosed ship of reeds not wood, presumably using standard construction techniques and equipped with some kind of tension trusses, which must survive heavy storms for 7 days, and a flood which has to cover Mesopotamia using only 7 days of rain.

There isn't enough time to build the ship or for the rain to flood Mesopotamia, it lacks an opening for ventilation and light, and the ship wouldn't have the strength to survive the heavy storms (even timber wouldn't be strong enough, certainly not reeds).

* Assyrian: There are only 2 days to build a completely enclosed cube of reeds (which have to come from one man's house), full of animals, people, silver and gold, as well as thousands of measures of oil, without tension trusses, with 9 rooms in seven decks, which must survive heavy storms for 6 days (which has to cover Mesopotamia using only 6 days of rain), equipped with punting poles for propulsion and steering (which cannot be used), handled by a man who cannot see where he is going while the ship is under way and who sends out the wrong birds to sight for land.

This is the most implausible of all the flood accounts. There isn't enough time to build the ship, or for the rain to flood Mesopotamia. The ship's shape and dimensions are nothing like ships of this era, are totally unseaworthy, and the ship wouldn't have the strength to survive heavy storms ('the wind and flood, the storm flattening the land... the storm was pounding, the flood was a war').

The punting poles could not have been used in a ship which is completely enclosed, the navigator can't see anything while the ship is under way, only opens a hatch after the ship has run aground, and is completely unqualified for the task, showing an ignorance of standard nautical procedures.

* Genesis: There are 120 years to build a large timber barge similar in size and shape to an Egyptian obelisk barge, with standard construction techniques for timber vessels such as tension trusses and longitudinal strength beams, together with numerous internal compartments which may have acted as primitive bulkheads.

It has three decks (making four levels), and only has to ride out 40 days of rain (more than enough to flood Mesopotamia, together with the underground water), without battling storms, heavy waves, and the open sea. It has a large skylight the length of the ship for ventilation and light, a closable porthole with limited visibility for navigation, and is handled by a navigator who knows how to use birds to check for the proximity of land and its suitability for disembarkation.

The fact that the Genesis account is the most historically plausible is strong evidence that it was written by someone personally informed about the event, whereas the Sumerian, Akkadian and Assyrian stories sound like mythologized descriptions written long afterwards by people with no personal knowledge of what happened, or even the knowledge to reconstruct accurately what really took place:

‘Since both Noah and Utnaphistim are scouting for land--albeit not to navigate--the bird that nautical customer dictates sending first is the raven.’

‘On the other hand, the Akkadian Deluge stories all betray ignorance of proper nautical terminology, and in one version of Atrahasis, the poet makes the reason quite clear when he has Atrahasis exclaim: 'I never built a boat...Draw a picture of it on the ground...let me see a picture so I can build a boat' (DT 42:13-15, in Lambert, 128).

Thus, as Assyrian writing about something he was ignorant of has changed the customary order of the birds used as navigational aids.’ [1]

‘The accuracy with which birds are described in the historical literature is striking. The book of Genesis says that Noah used first the raven and then the dove to determine whether the water had subsided (Gen. 8:6-13).

Whereas the raven continued flying to and fro from the ark until the water subsided, the dove returned quickly to the ark the first time she was let go, returned with a newly plucked olive leaf in her beak the second time, and did not return the third time.

A. Heidel noted the superiority of the biblical account to the parallel account in the Babylonian Gilgamesh Epic where Utnapishtim, called "the exceedingly wise," first sent a dove, then a swallow, and finally a raven (A. Heidel, Gilgamesh Epic and Old Testament Parallels [1963], pp. 252f). Noah, whose wisdom is nowhere mentioned, showed much more knowledge about birds.’ [2]

-----

All external sources cited below have been quoted (with references), from Glenn Miller’s paper ‘Is Genesis merely a rip-off of other ANE lit?’, 2005.

[1] R. David Freedman, “The Dispatch of the Reconnaissance Birds in Gilgamesh XI”, JANES, vol 5:127.

[2] International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, article ‘BIRDS’, 1976.

[_Mephitus]

cool, more reading to do, thanks!

[_Jersey Girl]

Gosh, Liz, don't ask us anything though provoking! Okay, I'll give this a try and if I contradict myself I want someone to say so. I'm undecided on many of these.

1. Does God possess a complete knowledge of the future?

If God exists as the Bible presents God, then I'd say that God has knowledge of the future (thus prophecy) but may not know how we will respond to it. Wow, this is too hard! I think of God (at the moment, I might change my mind later today!) as existing outside of the Universe knowing the outcomes based on our choices, but not necessarily knowing what our choices will be, not necessarily intervening but allowing us the choices that we make. For example, environmental choices.

2. Was the flood of Noah local or global? (A favorite topic of Harmony's)

Oh my. I've discussed/debated the flood of Noah at great length. I'd have to say it's allegory or a local flood, as in the Black Sea flood findings. I know that some will say that the fossil record throughout the world is evidence of a global flood however, I do not have the scientific foundation to address this.


3. Was Christ both fully God and fully human during his ministry or did he relinquish his divinity for a season?

I'm not sure. The Christ presented in the Gospels had foreknowledge and the ability to perform healings and other types of miracles. I think fully God and fully human.

4. Are only the predestined saved or do all people have a potential for full salvation? (This kind of ties in to the knowledge of the future subject)

I don't believe in predestination. The concept of predestination negates choice. I think we have choice otherwise salvation is a game.

5. Do men and women enjoy eternal security from the moment of their spiritual rebirth or must they endure faithfully to the end to have a hope of eternal life?

All of the above.

6. what happens to babies who die?

They either simply cease to exist and their bodies decompose or they have a soul that goes to God.

7. The fate of the unevangelized.

I am not certain. Evangelized as in meaning what?

8. Is baptism essntial to salvation and to whom should it be administered - infants or mature believers?

If what you mean is the ceremony/ritual of baptism, no...it's not required for salvation.

9. Should women serve in certain ministerial capasities?

Do you mean leadership positions such as pastors/bishops/priests? I have to say generally no to this one and make the no conditional.

10. Does man play a role in his own salvation beyond an initial confession of Christ as Savior? What is the meaning and place of works?

Man plays the role of acceptance and striving to do the will of God.

11. Is man a child of God or a mere creation of God? What are the psycological effects of each of these views?

We are the creation of God. The psychological effects? I'm not sure how to answer that.

12. Should wives submit to their husbands and if so how and in what way?

I have to go with what the Bible teaches about this. The wife should submit herself to a godly husband.